BigHook Chat — Friday, September 8, 2006

Thursday, September 7, 2006 | →

David I.
has entered the room
David I.
Morning! Morning!
David I.
Sep 8
8:55 AM
steve k.
wow
steve k.
Facebook members, most of them from a generation not known for political activism, are
complaining of the unintended consequences of making so much personal information available to
friends, be it an embarrassing photo or the break up of a relationship.

``News Feed is just too creepy, too stalker-esque, and a feature that has to go," reads the
petition of the newly formed ``Students against Facebook News Feed."

``No one likes having their every move watched," said Igor Hiller, 17, of Palo Alto, Calif .
``Me and my friends are just feeling really creeped out. It's Big Brotherish."

Two days earlier, the Palo Alto-based company founded in 2004 by then Harvard University student
Mark Zuckerberg began automatically notifying users whenever new photos were posted by friends.

``Calm down. Breathe. We hear you," Zuckerberg wrote to users on the Facebook site on Tuesday
of the changes. But he said he had no plans to back down.
Sep 8
9:05 AM
Eric C.
Ship it!
David I.
David I. Email me if you need an invite: greg@fotonotes.net
Eric C.
this sorta reminds me of Architecture for Humanity only for radio chips: http://architectureforhumanity.org/
Kevin M.
is FON a model for this?
David B.
Does this converge with software radio in any away? http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/
David B.
That link et al btw
Sep 8
9:10 AM
Eric C.
Sep 8
9:15 AM
Eric C.
that's what current.tv does
Sep 8
9:20 AM
steve k.
"we pause it, we fast forward it, we dont care"
David B.
isn't "people are not wwathing the same thing at the same time" a little inconsistent in some way with bittorrent?
Joshua A.
cable cos are taking different approaches to this trend, e.g. some emphasizing local storage (DVR), others focused on storage at the center (video on demand)
Frank P.
web 2.0
Frank P.
Joshua A.
does anyone know inbound vs. outbound traffic ratio for folks like Flickr or Youtube?
steve k.
storage doubles in price performance roughly every year (2x the storage for the same cost) - telco cable/networks dont. Biggest "risk" I see is that people substitute more and more storage for bandwidth (using a thin pipe to download rather than a fat pipe to view) and the opportunity to capture ANY value in the network declines because the engineering paradigm assumes a crappy, jittery, thin pipe.
steve k.
The risk is the last mile guys - trying to capture near-term value for themselves - end up drivig the value elsewhere ino the ecosystem.
Sep 8
9:25 AM
steve k.
srt've like the way we have started to route around the crappy buggy, static applications/OS that MSFTso successfully imposed (destroying innovation in the desktop market and ultimately driving value into the web)
Tim D.
bittorrent costs no money or time, so somewhat different from a contemporaneous viewing experience
Sep 8
9:30 AM
Kevin M.
streaming vs downloading
Tim D.
that is the key distinction between bittorrent and the tv viewing experience
Eric C.
acronyms = bad for stuff like this
Eric C.
think of it as a feed
Eric C.
of content
Eric C.
that's structured
Rahul T.
what are folks' favorite readers? (RSS)
Kevin M.
I talk about "call off the search"
Kevin M.
you subscribe to your favourites, and then you see what is new from Doc,
Eric C.
it's a way to subscribe to a web page
Sep 8
9:35 AM
David B.
I think steve's point that "blogs" are still a small community is an important one we don't want to skip. He's right in many ways. There are many degres of "blog awarenes/use" and it's easy to inflate our blogging
Kevin M.
we have 50 milliion blogs in our index
Kevin M.
it isn't a small group
scott o.
100 M blogs in China by the end of the year
David B.
right and Doc him self just said "most people don't know what a blog is and don't know how to use one."
David B.
you are both right
Tim D.
Kevin - are you concerned about splogs - spam + blogs?
Kevin M.
yes, wretch.cc
Kevin M.
yes tim, we spend a lot of effort on this
Tim D.
how does it impact your operational model? Like AOL had with spam email?
David B.
a huge percentage of blogs are there just for google ad revenue
Tim D.
similar filtering and storage issues?
Kevin M.
about 70% of pings we get are spam
Kevin M.
we have a lot of layers of spam detection
Tim D.
wow - I had no idea it was so prevalent
David B.
these are robot blogs that take content from other RSS feeds and re-post as though it's a real blog and then have adsense ads
Steve S.
Last year we decided to tag things "JuniperPoint"
Tim D.
interestign article in Wired this month
Tim D.
robot blogs, splogs etc
Kevin M.
it's the all-Google spam machine
David B.
when you search, 80% (?) of the results will be these bogus blogs
Sep 8
9:40 AM
Kevin M.
they subscribe to google news feeds, post to blogspot, and ad adsense
Kevin M.
no David
steve k.
Seriously - what are people's favorite feed readers. particuarly nes that are 100% web based? (I have a locked desktop so cant run an app)
Steve S.
bloglines!
Kevin M.
well, not in our index, unless you are searching for 'viagra'
Eric C.
we have kickass blogsearch too :)
Tim D.
I just use safari
David B.
Steve. k -- they all suck :-(
Clegg I.
I use Pulp Fiction
Clegg I.
which looks and feels a lot like Mail.app
Steve S.
what's wrong with bloglines David B? I'm pretty happy with it.
Kevin M.
google blogsearch is pretty good, very responsive (especially for blogspot ;) )
Eric C.
stupid acronyms!
Kevin M.
Atom is an IETF standard for feeds, and it's done
Kevin M.
RSS has 9 semi-compatible versions but we cope with it
Steve S.
i should probably give blogsearch a try Eric.
steve k.
technorati search on zipcar - love the ad for colon irrigation (?!?) http://www.technorati.com/search/zipcar
Kevin M.
overture, bizarre
Eric C.
Not true!
Sep 8
9:45 AM
Eric C.
our services are in Beta for a reason
Kevin M.
whats not true?
Eric C.
so that we can continually tinker
steve k.
Kevin M - intersting. I always see these tags for "Atom" subscriptions but I had no idea what ATOM is and it isnt as prevalent, so I always have subscribed to the RSS feed. Less-good stuff winning out due to better awareness.
David B.
Didn't we touch on some of these issues last night Steve. We can talk off-line. at the end of day, it's to each her own
Eric C.
The Blogger team had its work cut out, in terms of educating folks about this (live-ness of the web)
Eric C.
atom and rss are the same thing
Kevin M.
It is a cultural thing at google from what I've seen
Kevin M.
Atom is a well-defined version of RSS
Steve S.
I always take the atom feed, if available.
Kevin M.
Google has the 'web as library of knowledge' model embedded deep
Kevin M.
My spiders always prefer Atom, because you can tell whether the entry is a summary or complete
steve k.
I'm taking the atom feed from now on - I always root for the underdg
Steve S.
And speaking of which, isen.com's feed only provides titles. (or am i confused). David is this on purpose?
Eric C.
http://isen.com/blog/atom.xml is a full content feed
Sep 8
9:50 AM
Steve S.
ahh, i must have subbed a long time ago to one of the other feeds.
Eric C.
Kevin: the challenge now is to integrate these verticals
Eric C.
in a UI that offers the most relevant stuff from the various buckets
steve k.
Shipping as a metaphor. Actually can run with this a long way. One intersting thing is how the shpping container has become the unbreakable constrainon product dimensions. Everything you build has to ft nicely into the confines of a shipping contaier o you incur hge additional trasport costs. So if you build something big, you make it so it can be broken into shipping-cntainer sized pieces. Not necessarily bad, but a sizing decision made in the 50's literally drives engineering decisions everywhere for all time.
Kevin M.
a DV camera that gives broadcast-quality NTSC is under $300 now
Kevin M.
the HD ones are under $2000
Eric C.
if anybody wants to know more about blogs/feeds/etc., let's chat later :)
Kevin M.
me too
David B.
a real HD camera (the ones "they" use costs approx. $100K, so while I suspect the $2K HD camera is very goode (awesome), it's probably not what "they" would call broadcast-quality
Kevin M.
http://technorati.com for lots of discovery of things
Sep 8
9:55 AM
Kevin M.
the $300 DV camera is better quality than the $100k ones I used to work with at the BBC in 1990 in everything but the optics
Eric C.
Eric C.
(a search for http://www.zipcar.com, to see who's linking to Zipcar's site)
Kevin M.
the HD ones are more compressed than DV at the moment, but they are still way better than NTSC
Kevin M.
thats not apples to apples
Kevin M.
Lionel G.
The only readon I got an HDTV this year was to serve as my Xbox 360 display device running at 1080p.
Eric C.
(I heart Technorati's UI :)
Lionel G.
It's nice to have all that detail as you frag 14 year olds in Chrome Hounds ;o)
steve k.
anyone want to give up a piece of their 3 minute card? wan to talk about another energing application - machine-to-machine data traffic. builing the world's autonomic nervous system...
Kevin M.
also europe has the "TV without frontiers" 50% local content rule
steve k.
TV - people see it as protecting their cuture and way life - not something to ess with.
Kevin M.
which they are currently trying to impose on the web
Sep 8
10:00 AM
Kevin M.
i think this supports my case that live matters only in real-time when you can interact with it
steve k.
intersting quote by a guy who recently left a senior marketing job at Coke. "What Coke is really selling is the American way of life. That is a really hard sell these days. Regardless of what you think of Bush, he has done huge damage to a lot of brands that are based on people having a positve image of america. It is intersting that Apple stamps teir products as "Designed in California" not America. You can still sell "California" the brand which is reatively udamaged, but "America" the brand is pretty severly impaired.
Kevin M.
wasn't that called DivX
Kevin M.
realtime vs live
Doc S.
Great point about the America brand. it's not only trashed worldwide, but at home as well.
Lionel G.
steve k -- u can use my card. I won't be playing it
steve k.
That guy now does marketing for a non-US more brand with more "global" qualities
Sep 8
10:05 AM
steve k.
thank you lionel - of course the rest of the room just let out a collectve groan. promise its cool and tangible.
Kevin M.
streaming is never better than downloading. If the network is slower than the compressed rate, streaming fails, downloading just takes a bit longer before you can start. If the network is faster than the compressed rate, streaming works, but still takes the duration of the file, and is vulnerable to bandwidth fluctuations. Downloading comes down faster than realtime, and you can then disconnect adn play ti later
Doc S.
I think I just played my card too. If anybody wants mine...
Frank P.
View paste
if I was chairman of the FCC:

there's a bureaucratic issue that needs to be resolved in Washington...

look at mailboxes...

you'll see "Approved by the US Postmaster General" somewhere on the box...

mail is communications...

the FCC needs to assume responsibility for this approval process...


steve k.
re wireless guys - tha is also why wireless data has been DOA for years. I am hoping that the failure here will finally get someone out there to realize that open-ness creates value rather than a high-barier system.
David I.
David I.
Read the above Doonesbury comic. Click it.
Sep 8
10:10 AM
Kevin M.
have you heard of MySpace, Elliott
Kevin M.
With desperate housewives, I like to build up a buffer so I am not at the mercy of schedulers screwing around with it
steve k.
steve k.
my favorite his week - weirdness of the world we live in (or that these guys are living in)
steve k.
oh - sorry
Sep 8
10:15 AM
Kevin M.
it is if you have 15 million viewers, it is efficient
Sep 8
10:15 AM
Joshua A.
American Idol is live in both senses of the word
Kevin M.
Satellite is even more efficeint
Joshua A.
and works because it is live
Frank P.
RSS aside: an RSS reader is a powerful tool that isn't easy to use if you're not selective about your sources. A lot of cruft can build up... stuff you will never read, and it becomes just another in-box to keep tidy.
Kevin M.
yes, AI, is interactive
Sep 8
10:25 AM
Kevin M.
has anyone got the mac DVI (15" or 17" ) tp VGA
Eric C.
"Wikipedia celebrates 750 years of American Independence"
Eric C.
the cd is perfect because my rental car has no ipod hookup... but has a cd player ;)
Sep 8
10:55 AM
Kevin M.
LonelyGirl15 is this season's TV hit
Frank P.
next year's killer apps... and ongoing: pervasive and locative computing watch this blog for clues: http://www.purselipsquarejaw.org/
Steve S.
eric is smiling
Sep 8
11:00 AM
Sep 8
11:05 AM
David B.
i'm not sure it's clear that what I was showing there is fundaamentally different than aa Vonage style servive. It was adding those features to aan exissting telco home service, whether the traditional landline type, or a "digital phone" from cable, or even a Vonage line.
Rahul T.
the sensor and home automation network is already well-known - problem is lack of (open) standards
Rahul T.
as an industry / space
scott o.
you do not do the building system control on the public net - we are doing IP-based building system control big time but its in a prive address walled garden - we do not want people hacking the building crontrol system in the animal labs (and there are many folk who would like to)
David B.
the key thing that scares the telco is letting people select third party services that apply to the customer's telco-supplied home phone service, without the telco's permission or even awareness of the customer doing it
scott o.
there are not open standards but there are standards that are begining to become supported
Sep 8
11:10 AM
Rahul T.
there are already many supported for HVAC - from ASHRE/BACNET and LON - these are NOT IP
Rahul T.
even if IP, like scott said, it's not public
Rahul T.
one option people talk about is via a home gateway, so I can check on something while I'm travelling, but it is a MAJOR security issue
David B.
scott o.
and clode (or open) the door?
Rahul T.
David B - can you or would you want to remotely turn on your stove or oven?
scott o.
might want to turn on the heat or AC when you start home
Kevin M.
how about .info?
Kevin M.
Macs have remotes now...
David B.
Here's a perhaps molre interesting post about GarageBot: http://www.toyz.org/mrblog/archives/00000133.html
David B.
I wouldn't want to touch my stove/oven Rahul, and my wife hasn't asked yet (that's who drives things like GarageBot in my household) :)
Kevin M.
danah said her youth subjects said "email is for old people"
Sep 8
11:15 AM
steve k.
on privacy - my favorite quote was from a professor from india. "Privacy is a very European concept ad even there, its only a fairly recent idea. People in villages had no privacy. Hey, I'm from India. We haven't had "privacy" for thousands of years. You just get used to it..."
Steve S.
blog it
David B.
Fujitsu's own site seems to have a broken link on the "more info" button: http://www.fpc.fujitsu.com/www/products_pe…
Kevin M.
ater the David conspiracy we have the Kevin conspiracy...
Sep 8
11:20 AM
steve k.
relationships are the kiler application in the long run
kc c.
admits confusion wrt the focus on machine-to-machine traffic as though it's some emerging category, or even well-defined. what's p2p/filesharing? when i am using a p2p app, it's much closer to machine-to-machine commo since i am rarely at the computer for the duration (or even inception) of the actual traffic flow.
steve k.
works fo me (probably because I am on exlorer) http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce…
kc c.
wonders what andrew o. thinks of persistent discussion on 'killer apps' even in face of his observation last century that 'connectivity' is and always likely to be the killer 'app'. (stevek uses synonym, 'relationships', but andrew said this years ago.)
Kevin M.
andrew o just left
Sep 8
11:25 AM
steve k.
Hig-tech hitchiking - waaaaaay cool and such a great idea.
steve k.
I can see this becoming the ultiate flash crowd thing - where people start organzig rides simpl to have them rather than with a purposeful destination inmind...
Eric C.
Re: my Fujitsu, I'm actually gonna start blogging my Ubuntu adventures with it here: http://ubuntu-p1510d.blogspot.com/
David B.
Sep 8
11:30 AM
Eric C.
it's called a "Lifebook p1510d"
Eric C.
zefrank.com
Joshua A.
steve k.
kc c. = basically the same. turns out you need to add some simple intermediate batching and coordinated upload - if you just tell a bunch of senssrs to report whenever you have something to say you get huge waves of data that the servers can't handle. There's a great Cisco piece on this - you need some intermediate intelligence a step or two up in the network s that the sensors can be dumber/cheaper.
Joshua A.
our behavior changes faster than average folks'
Kevin M.
does that count homemade media?
Tim D.
A great (fiction) book that "Lonely Girl" resembles is William Gibson's "Pattern Recognition" - great book
Joshua A.
i think so, though i'm checking that now -- i think it's in new media
Sep 8
11:35 AM
steve k.
voice minutes (wireless and wirelie comned) have declined about 6% a year since 2002 - while SMS messaging has grown. On tv - "In the UK, teens Television is of “declining interest” to many 16- to 24-year-olds — who, on average, watch TV for one hour less per day than the average viewer — Ofcom [regulator] found in its annual communications market report 2005-06."
Rahul T.
UK is relatively unique with a TV license (like S. Africa) - annual!
Kevin M.
also see http://plos.org for open journals
David B.
2009 is a projection. do they have data points for between 1999 and 2006?
Robin C.
kc, the open source method is like real-time peer review...how about a science journal that relies on real-time peer review....
Sep 8
11:40 AM
Kevin M.
robin, kc, lets talk about plos - I think there is potential there
Rahul T.
Open reivew is on the table for science - real-time? much harder
kc c.
yes plos is way ahead of us .bio community in general way ahead of us
Kevin M.
the irony is that this is what Berners-Lee invented the web for
David B.
network people think the "it" is the underlying net fabric - and while the rest doesn't happen without it, but the reality is the "Internet" in any sense that matters is really all the people-level things, the other half of the room that hasn't been saying much
kc c.
part of problem is the bio community much more heavily funded and NIH is helping to coerce more rapid dissemination of results (much to chagrin of publishing journals)
Kevin M.
also Nature is very into this - do you know Timmo?
Rahul T.
bio/med also has big names pushing open publishing
Rahul T.
vamus, et. al
kc c.
/extreme/ irony. but, all of academia is threatened by podcasting and blogging. they either must adapt or go extinct, and universities are among the most conservative institutions in the world :(
kc c.
doesn't know timmo.
Rahul T.
it's not threatened per se - the tenure review process doesn't know how to react
Joi I.
< - In Chicago
Rahul T.
faculty know and like blogs, often
kc c.
yes some faculty know and like blogs, but the univ's aren't ready for the faculty to put podcasts of all their lectures/classes up on line.
Rahul T.
Some of the best faculty blogs are from "established" or "safe" faculty - lessig, deLong, Krugman, etc
Kevin M.
joi, I could have webcast to you
Kevin M.
Pharyngula is good
kc c.
i.e., the inevitable trajectory of blogs as dissemination tool poses the same threat to universities as mp3's do to riaa.
Sep 8
11:45 AM
Joi I.
in lounge for 1 hr
Kevin M.
if you want to play a 3 minute card I cna iChat you back in, joi
Joi I.
haha
kc c.
oh, if you are interested in nsf review panels (you do get paid for your time and travel,but probably not as much as most of you make in your day jobs), send kc@caida.org email, i'll let nsf program managers know.. and if anyone wants to go become a program manager, NSF has openings. in fact, ahem. : http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2006/nsf06601/nsf06601.htm (the 'let's start from scratch and build a new Internet' -- it's getting its own office within NSF, a big deal.)
Eric C.
+1 for 3 minutes from Joi
Rahul T.
kc - I can review...
Frank P.
my three minutes... what the IT is....

we're so allusive and we have shared assumptions that we don't don't articulate


we need enforceable public policy to assure:

huge bandwidth be available to everybody, 
everywhere
symmetrical up and down,
CHEAP 

AND... 

the appliances to take advantage of that
kc c.
joi: elliot got the mylo and assures us an 8- and 11-year old will give us feedback if they don't break it first fighting over it
Joi I.
haha
kc c.
rahul: you're already on their lists. :)
Joi I.
what did he get it for?
Eric C.
Joi: his name wasn't Tim
kc c.
it was a nametag lottery
Eric C.
;)
Joi I.
ahh
Eric C.
Joi - Kevin's pulled up iChat on the projector
elliot n.
yep, you can expect some feedback on teamspeak this week!
Sep 8
11:50 AM
Kevin M.
joi, switch to iChat
Clegg I.
"Hold on, now. Let's not take goat cheese off the menu!"
David B.
marketing is a combination of intuitive and non-intuitive and having spent a lot more time in that space in the last 6-8 years, I'm amazed how little of the latter is ever used. We probably know more about what people do with phones from our little PhoneGnome userbase than a large hunk of companies do (and we've done it for a tiny fraction of the money)
elliot n.
was that a reference to kevin taking joi off of this chat? heh
Sep 8
11:55 AM
Clegg I.
Joi = Goat Cheese!
Joshua A.
to earlier question, consumer-produced media are NOT in the chart i uploaded earlier
elliot n.
moreso when he is just off a plane!
Joshua A.
Kevin M.
thought not
Eric C.
currently #2 on reddit: http://www.waxy.org/archive/2006/09/08/sex… - fascinating and unfolding Internet/privacy drama!
Sep 8
12:00 PM
Chuck G.
I think we old timers are hampered by thinking of the word "network" as applying to the physical infrastructure. In fact, the new "network" is at the higher layers and is largely socially driven for people and functionally driven for devices
Sep 8
2:20 PM
Doc S.
this still on?

Thursday, September 7, 2006 | →

 

BigHook Chat

People in this transcript

  • Chuck Gritton
  • Clegg Ivey
  • Cynic
  • David Beckemeyer
  • David Isenberg
  • Dewayne Hendricks
  • Display
  • Doc Searls
  • Don Jackson
  • elliot noss
  • Emy
  • Eric Case
  • Frank P.
  • Jim Baller
  • Joi Ito
  • Joshua Auerbach
  • kc claffy
  • Kevin Marks
  • Lionel Gibbons
  • Martin Geddes
  • Rahul Tongia
  • Rick Whitt
  • Robin Chase
  • scott o bradner
  • steve kamman
  • Steve Smith
  • Tim Dodd
  • Tim Ray