BigHook Chat — Thursday, September 6

  • 8:30 to 10:00 AM, Session 3a: What is Infrastructure? Brett Frischmann
  • 10:30 AM to Noon, Session 3b: What is Economics? Chad Jones
  • 2:00 to 3:30 PM, Session 4a: Internet as Infrastructure -- Susan Crawford, Andrew Odlyzko
  • 4:00 to 5:30, Session 4b: Dreaded R-word, Rhymes with Speculation -- Barbara Cherry, others TBD
  • 8:00 to 9:30 PM, Session 5: Spectacular Musical Event with Mike Marshall, Alex Hargreaves and Paul Kowert,
    plus A Completely Different Angle on Infrastructure Economics with special guest John Kanwisher
  • Way too late: Sing-A-Long lyrics
Sep 6
8:50 AM
Peter K.
Brett Frischmann
Peter K.
Doc S.
"most infrastructure is managed as a commons" general rule. would like examples.
Peter K.
value "spillover"
Doc S.
"large social surplusses" ... also large economic benefits. A rising infrastructural tide lifts business as well as social boats.
Sep 6
9:00 AM
David I.
has entered the room
David I.
View paste
Quote of Note: Dick Cheney 
"Oil remains fundamentally a government business." 
Dick Cheney, CEO Haliburton, in his speech at the
Institute of Petroleum Autumn lunch, 1999
Doc S.
He's talking about what JP Rangaswwami would also be talking about if he were here. That "because effects" -- money made because of something (including infrastructure) far exceed "with effects": money made by selling the original goods (including infrastructure) itself.
Frank P.
has entered the room
Peter K.
Doc, Brett's definition of traditional infrastructure: (1) transportation systems, such as highway and road systems, railways, airline systems, and ports; (2) communication systems, such as telephone networks and postal services; (3) governance systems, such as court systems; and, (4) basic public services and facilities, such as schools, sewers, and water systems.
Peter K.
lots of those managed as commons
Doc S.
And you see more "because effects" from the demand side than any supply side, where one tends to look for the money that can only be made by selling the infrastructure itself.
Doc S.
"possessed" is the critical variable here.
David I.
Doc -- and the rest -- please don't early-bind to ideas you already think you know . . .
Doc S.
Whiteacre: If I own the pipes, I can use and charge for them as I please.
steve k.
when he said "an apple for one person" immediately thought the computers. I am a geek.
Doc S.
thanks, david.
steve c.
ideas follow bose-einstein statistics
elliot n.
there could be a "fun with semantics" argument here for music as a commons. the "intermediate good" argument is a bit tenuous but it is certainly the way that I consume music. music -------> mood
Peter K.
economists recognize "spillover" effects from the presence of infrastructure: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abs…
Sep 6
9:05 AM
elliot n.
of course only the reproduction, not public performance elements of music.
Doc S.
bookmark: are the building materials we call open source infrastructure? They are like boards, but of a kind that can be used by many... non-rivalrous.
Robin C.
has entered the room
Greg E.
has entered the room
Peter K.
good one, Doc
Robin C.
the board could be used by me now, and then is "unused" or free for use later. This is of course the principle behind zipcar...but these could be considered specific goods (not generic). Yet cars are generic.
Peter K.
people should think more about the possibilty of "wide variety of outputs" for open source -- the components can be mixed and matched for many uses
Doc S.
Dewayne H.
has entered the room
Robin C.
there are a huge number of things that we use very inefficiently and are really available for use by others...this is a grey area and not what he is talking about, but I am fascinated by it. Unused excess capacity
Desiree M.
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Britt B.
has entered the room
elliot n.
that is a great distinction in networks. telco/cableco arguments relate almost entirely to private outputs. they do not capture, or even think about the public/nonmarket goods.
elliot n.
they do not value my frivolous IM conversation.
Sep 6
9:10 AM
David I.
that was a good contrib by david reed because it was at its heart a clarification question!
Sep 6
9:10 AM
Frank P.
neighbor caught on the roof... fire department got him down. What do I owe you, he asked? That's why you pay taxes sir, they said.
Peter K.
general-purpose : stupid network :: specialized : smart network
David I.
the tendancy is to specificy and optimize, even tho generality has value itself -- it just cant be pwned
Tom F.
has entered the room
Robin C.
hey, this is exactly what happens with roads in cities. They are optimized for cars. Pedestrians and bikes get the stuff around the edges
Frank P.
salt lake city roads are optimized by statute for horses and wagons
steve c.
yup (to robin) ... it is amazing being in a place with a different optimization -- like copenhagen
Sep 6
9:15 AM
Doc S.
"managing infrastuc as a commons avoids relying on the market or the government to pick winners."
Peter K.
"managing infrastructure resources in an openly accessible manner eliminates the need to rely on either market actors or the government to pick winners downstream"
Doc S.
DI: how does managing a commons work?
Peter K.
BF: net neutrality would be managing a commons
Richard W.
Can't managing a commons rely on the right kinds of "market" signals (defining markets as users, not providers)?
Doc S.
"think about management as resource management"
Peter K.
"managing" == "resource management"
Jerry M.
@robin: ask Hans Monderman, the Dutch traffic engineer who's been helping calm traffic across the Neths by helping communities thoughtfully redesign roads and intersections, usually by removing stoplights and stop signs, painting over limit lines, and redesigning the sidewalk-road transitions.
steve c.
can carriers offer content and services in a commons?
Aaron S.
has entered the room
Doc S.
RPepper: commons = non-discriminatory access. not based on use or user, or identity of either.
Peter K.
bf: "commons" i'm using to mean "non-discriminatory access"
Robin C.
I know Hans and I love him, but he drives me crazy. His "free road" does not work in places where people are undervalued. In Indian (and Boston) urban streets, bikes, cars, people don't and can't share very well. Politeness and respect for others lives is required for his system.
Doc S.
NEA: Nobody owns it, Everybody can use it, Anybody can improve it.
Sep 6
9:20 AM
Peter K.
non-discriminatory, or openly accessible: "managed such that the resources are openly accessible to members of a community who wish to use the resources [2]. This does not, however, mean that access is free. We pay tolls to access highways, we buy stamps to send letters, we pay telephone companies to have our calls routed across their lines, and so on. Users must pay for access to some (though not all) of these resources. Nor does it mean that access to the resource is unregulated. Transportation of hazardous substances by highway or mail, for example, is heavily regulated. The key point is that the resource is openly accessible to all within a community regardless of the identity of the end user or the end use [3]."
Doc S.
... as a value system.
Doc S.
Not as a fact.
Jerry M.
nicely put, Robin.
steve k.
On the pressure for open infrastructures to get specialized for specific uses. I think there's a mroe pernicious element which is a class of actor who create gain for themselves by co-opting a common good. ITs a semi-parasitic economic niche but a lot of people find it to be a very efective strategy for getting through life. We have all worked with that person who tends to twist a meeting/project/group event to server teir private ends...
elliot n.
limitations need to address the tragedy of the commons
Robin C.
Steve, exactly right
Don J.
isn't "congestion pricing" a limitation?
Don J.
I have no problem with congestion pricing, just asking
Robin C.
and our government is filled with lobbyists pushing to make sure that infrastructure works for them and their interests
Doc S.
FWIW, the usefulness of the NEA value system with open source is that the goods are essentially non-rivalrous to begin with. They are building materials the grow in the wild, and only get wilder... and more useful.
chad j.
Is the local grocery store managed as a commons? Non discrimination in who can buy and what they buy...
Peter K.
steve k., i live in a country that seems to be managed at the top level that way
Robin C.
congestion pricing addresses the moments when the good becomes rivalorous
steve k.
My definition of a commons - "something you really like, but would like a lot more if we coul get rid of all these other people using it." e.g. "I really love this park but it would be so much nicer if they got rid of all those dog lovers so we dont have to da with dogs/dog haters so the dogs can run free." If some of its uses annoy you, its probably a commons.
Doc S.
Question for Brett: what do you tell A) the feds, B) the carriers, C) the demand side.
Britt B.
In practical terms, NEA *is* true for physical infrastructure.
Britt B.
When a private resource is managed as a commons, "Nobody" owns it because the nominal owner cannot remove it from public use, in the forseeable future.
Doc S.
got it, Britt. Good point,.
Douglas F.
(Robin) that seems to be the challenging area - how is the commons managed when demand reaches a point that furhter usage is rivalrous?
Robin C.
there is a desirable aspect to the "optimizing" for specific users. We think that we are "looking ahead", using foresight. So this idea of specialization is compelling.
Britt B.
Anyone can improve it, through a process not *anyone* can do - through a maintenance district.
Robin C.
Douglas: dynamic congestion pricing. fees slide up and down to manage traffic
Britt B.
Creating such a district is probably no more complex than updating the Linux kernel
Sep 6
9:25 AM
elliot n.
it is wholly private and can discriminate
Frank P.
can't bring my aples to safeway and get shelf space
Frank P.
apples
elliot n.
it is not non-rival
Frank P.
can go to safeway and buy another's apples
Jerry M.
they take my apples... ;)
Jerry M.
that'd be a great hack. find a way to stock your own goods and get paid thru paypal or something.
Peter K.
steve k., a commons can be cooperatively managed, too -- if the dog lovers and dog haters cooperate to keep the park nicer, both sides get a nicer park; they just have to figure out how to share
Don J.
Grocery Stores aren't managed as commons, owners decide which goods will be sold.
Peter K.
supermarkets seem really discriminatory to me
Greg E.
Re grocery stores: Does purchasing variations of the same good class category qualify as multiple uses?
Peter K.
don, exactly
Peter K.
and only certain types of buyers really fit -- you have to have enough money, you have to like the goods they decide to sell
elliot n.
strongly disagree
Britt B.
We're confusing complexity with the right to do something
elliot n.
it takes the metaphor too far
Jerry M.
if you play out the grocery store analogy, you head into mall law, which is its own special world of local laws
Frank P.
can anybody get me a few hundred grams of cesium?
Greg E.
Frank: I think there is a grocery nearby. ;-0
Britt B.
If you have great apples, and know how to deal with the produce buyer, you will have shelf space
Richard W.
supermakets are two sided markets -- suppliers and users; the commons management can extend to one but not the other
Don J.
eBay is a much better example than a supermarket. There are exceptions, there are things they won't let you sell.
steve k.
IS a supermarket a commons? Key to remember what it replaced, which was a single-owner specialized sop where pricing culd be discriminatory and there were high search costs. One of the key differentiators of a grocery store back in the day was fixed pricing, qulity assurance, and the general reassurance that everyone got the same deal/quality. Maybewe just need someone tofgure out the value of that offer in the internet space.
Greg E.
Don J.: Nice point.
Peter K.
britt, not necessarily -- you can be crowded out by a big conglomerate who knows how to deal with the produce buyer's managers
Frank P.
the supply chain models are not commons, not managed as a commons, and often require discriminatory rents
Doc S.
good point: economic theory will not give you many answers, but is good for framing trade-offs.
Doc S.
"What's the value of the internet, where does the value come from, and where would you start in thinking about how it contributes to society?"
steve k.
Most goods are sold as a commons. makes sense for pricing at least. all uyers in a given venue pay the same price for cokes. price discriminaiton is by venue, not between users.
Don J.
Vendors buy shelf space at grocery stores in order to gain access to the market. But I don't beleive the marketplace for buying shelf space is open and non-discriminatory
Sep 6
9:30 AM
Greg E.
Didn't someone suggest yesterday that language was infrastructure?
Doc S.
lots of value is not caputred in market share and revenues... it's spillover...
elliot n.
this gets interesting in thinking about i) the attention economy and ii) google (and to a lesser extent yahoo) starting to actually figure out how to drive $$ from that
Peter K.
"it's okay to have a spillover-rich environment"
Doc S.
I think JP would call spillover a because effect.
Britt B.
on-pay toilets are a spill-over environment
Britt B.
"Non-pay"
Tom F.
Of course, one of the big problems with the Internet today is that the little suppliers and the little users can be crowded out by the big players who get laws passed by the regulators who don't really understand the technology or its uses.
steve k.
Market for shelf sace is mroe open than you think - hereis a high economic/investment barrier but if the product sells and has enough marketing behind it the grocerystore doesnt care who you are - they will sell it.
Greg E.
elliot n: Interesting. Is someone's attention rival or non-rival? Attention can be renewed, but it is limited at any time.
elliot n.
there is the rub in it. it is not strategy, it is execution!
steve k.
My worry is the Internet isn't movin fast enough so the "turn a public good to my private gain" crowd can start to harry it and finally get their teeth into it.
Peter K.
nulty: "spillover" == "externality"
elliot n.
much like the problem with muni networks. big companies AND governments have both screwed it up (execution) so now what?
Don J.
commons can have tragedies. congestion pricing is one way to deal with the tragedy of too many people using the commons at the same time
Doc S.
Tim Nulty: "extremely persuasive and incontrovertible"... however... while it is obvioius, true and correct... 50 years ago... haven't heard anything new... all correct... in the extremely narrow minded ecoomic thinking of the last 20 years, is this new?
Doc S.
David I: six plots in literature, and plenty of new novels.
Jerry M.
Sep 6
9:35 AM
elliot n.
loosely coupled but powerfully related not = tightly coupled
steve c.
almost any system past a few elements is complex
Peter K.
tangent: the small number of standard plots in literature: http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html
Jerry M.
Peter K.
ref barbara cherry: Alessandro Vespignani (Indiana University, Bloomington)
elliot n.
Desiree M.
Scott B.
Willa Cather: There are only two or three human stories, and they go on repeating themselves as fiercely as if they had never happened before"
Peter K.
dpreed: if you look at small systems, price signals are hard to generate; price signals at the edge of a discontinuity are useless
Sep 6
9:40 AM
Peter K.
queuing theory is all about phase transitions
Jerry M.
Peter K.
at phase transitions, things go non-linear
scrawford
has entered the room
Robin C.
the other thing we talked about last night: if we could create abundance, these issues wouldn't be a problem
Peter K.
jerrym: is one of the phase transitions the way we're looking at things, and speaking about it?
scrawford
i tried to tie all of this together -- beinhocker, complexity, and the internet, here http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abs…
Doc S.
So Tim, are you looking for something post-Newtonian? (Assuming you were teaching Newton 50 years ago?) And Brett, are you trying to make an Einsteinian move here? (By Jerry's metaphor.)
Peter K.
steve k.: "Organizational Disasters" Charles Perrow
steve k.
I always feel a bit like Charles Perrow ruined my life. I took his class "Organizational Disasters" in college in 1990 where he proved beyond question that most major sytem failures were due to system design failures - specfically the failure to build around an assumption of huma fallibility. However, most of those disasters were ascribed to "human error" because it was easer to blame the people (cause effect) than the sysem (complex system design/funciton). I just took that as gospel and it took me YEARs to fgure out that most people assumed the opposite.
steve k.
Sep 6
9:45 AM
scrawford
complex does not mean complicated
steve c.
many body problem with n>3 is unsolved
Peter K.
ObBookRef: Systemantics, John Gall <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics>;
Jerry M.
problem is, run this idea forward and you get A New Kind of Science, which I also don't buy
Peter K.
steve k.
On emerent systems. tere is some very good work that "roves" that bubbles (and busts) are emergent behaviors of a market. They can be tamped down a bit but basically they are baked into the funciton of the system.
scrawford
this idea just helps us focus on importance of diversity and density for emergent systems.
Greg E.
Is complexity a measurement of the system or the modeler?
Charles G.
is the modeler part of the system?
Peter K.
Frank P.
Does resource modeling of public infrastructure suggest that if you overbuild you can avoid the discontinuities?
steve c.
you can be successful analyzing some horrendously complex systems, but you need to set limits on what you want to get out of your measurements
Peter K.
greg, "complexity" is a measure of an inability to model
Greg E.
Peter K.: The quantum model requires it.
steve c.
and QM is not complex at a fundamental level
Sep 6
9:50 AM
steve k.
The one we can all get our teeth into wen you come to a grinding halt on the highway, sit for 10 minutes, andthen suddenly you are of and going again at 70 mph but never see the "cause". What we don't nauturally conclude is that the the jam emerged from a phase state change of the trafic flow itself, with no external cause. even if we do, that is a highly unsatisfying conclusion. perhaps we are just hoping there actualy is a god in the machine?
Robin C.
if path dependency is critical, and there is no going back, doesn't this reinforce the idea of managing the resource to handle particular situations? This goes against what he was advocating for.
Peter K.
steve k., i always get satisfied by knowing it's a phase state change, and i start thinking about how to reduce nucleation points, etc.
steve k.
Robin - the only problem is that we usually have no idea what the path dependency outcome of a certain path is. Since we don't know the nend state,we can't pick the path.
Peter K.
jerrym: "security/safety" vs. "resiliency"
Doc S.
I'd still like to ask Brett what he would recommend, specifically, to A) the carriers; and B) the regulators.
steve k.
peter K, this is why you have that Zen aura that I so aspire to and fail at... (half grin).
Peter K.
lol
Peter K.
ommmm... /me in Zen trance :-)
steve c.
we always seem to look for centralized authority for safety and security ... when you have a hammer ...
Peter K.
dpreed book rec: "The Global Financial System"
Sep 6
9:55 AM
Peter K.
Jerry M.
Jerry M.
about container shipping
Peter K.
david's picking up other big infrastructures to see if we can generalize: global financial system, logistics, swift <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWIFT>;
Sep 6
10:00 AM
Peter K.
hmm, compare and contrast externalities and spillovers: http://www.google.com/search?q=externaliti…
elliot n.
we do not accept the complexity, we try and explain it rather than embrace it
Tom F.
has left the room
Doc S.
FWIW, NEA is not a definition of a commons, but rather a value system followed by creators of goods that build a commons -- among other things.
steve k.
Occurs to me that economists are also susceptibe to the desire to fine-tune a system rather than leave it geneal. So rather than building a roust generalizd set of rules for managing a common, the logic of the debate drives them to try an create a "perfect" commons-maagement system. maybe this s why FCC auctions are so byzantine and suscpetible to gamin.
Doc S.
Is there a better listener than Jerry? the dude rocks.
kc c.
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Sep 6
10:05 AM
Don J.
Public Safety access to spectrum. CALEA is putting constraints and requirements on others for purported public safety reasons.
elliot n.
we all know CALEA is all about telco/cableco control of networks. no one in this room is fooled.
steve k.
My meta-conclusion from bighook looks to be this "we are in a new renassaince" (and lacktowords to even discuss what we see around us). feels right to me.
steve k.
Actually I think CALEA is more visceral than that. there are a LOT of people (mostly men) who are deeply uncomfortable with an emergent, elf organizing system so they are desperatesly trying to put a god in the machine whether it needs one or not.
Anders F.
has entered the room
Peter K.
i'm wondering if the old thing tried to view complex systems using classical mechanics, and we're trying to figure out what quantum mechanics is
Jerry M.
I do summaries like this every Monday for a call-in "show" that Pip and I run. Details at http://www.yi-tan.com, and send me email at jerry@sociate.com if you'd like to get the weekly invites. it's open to all, but I don't publish the dial-in info openly so I can avoid completely random participants
Sep 6
10:10 AM
Jerry M.
oh, and if you'd like to be a guest, just ping me!
Don J.
Law enforcement wants the means to listen to whatever communications they can. Telcos and CableCarriers go along with this since CALEA needs centralized infrastructure to enforce. Truly distrubuted and user owned and managed communications would make CALEA implementation difficult/impossible
Don J.
so law enforcement, FCC, and carriers are complicit. CALEA gives them all something they want, for law enforcement, access, and for the FCC and Carriers, it maintains the status quo (their existance and importance)
Sep 6
10:40 AM
Peter K.
Adam P.
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Jerry M.
Peter K.
Chad Jones
Peter K.
Sep 6
10:45 AM
Peter K.
David I.
David I.
actually I meant this -- new growth theory blog founded by Romer: http://econblog.aplia.com/
Jorge O.
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Sep 6
10:50 AM
Barbara C.
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Scott B.
has entered the room
Jerry M.
so I'm not crazy about attributing all the "progress" since then to economic *growth*
Jerry M.
seems like conflating lotsa stuff
elliot n.
jerry, in that sense think about how much spiritual growth has been facilitated by satisfying base economic needs
Jerry M.
hence New Growth Theory, I guess...
Jerry M.
irony, yes, elliot? :)
David I.
has left the room
Don J.
Maslow's hierarchy at work
elliot n.
heh. indeed it is.
elliot n.
David I.
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Sep 6
10:55 AM
David I.
Steve_Crocker
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Aaron S.
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Adam P.
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Frank P.
all generalizations are wrong, including this one; but, no metaphor purports to be "right." Rather, a metaphor is an abstraction that may reflect a facet or a symbolic aspect of something else. A metaphor is simply a signifier. So "all metaphors are wrong," is wrong.
Peter K.
cj: adam smith's invisible hand apply to "objects" - rivalrous goods
Jerry M.
if you read Omnivore's Dilemma, all we have is indeed corn
Jerry M.
can't see the corn for the trees... er....
Frank P.
why should we give him the corn kernels? can't we get a better price than that?
Sep 6
11:00 AM
Jerry M.
Jerry M.
Knowledge and the Wealth of Nations
Peter K.
by David Warsh.
elliot n.
the problem is not whether greater funding of education (for example) is good, but rather how can it actually be incented in a modern democracy?
elliot n.
china has a much easier road here and is driving on it!
Jorge O.
has left the room
Peter K.
cj: objects (atoms) are rivalrous; ideas (recipes for putting together atoms) aren't
Sep 6
11:05 AM
elliot n.
probably a corn tree
Jerry M.
corn tree bark: definitely scarce
steve c.
a quick back of the envelope gives 10^80 Hydrogen atoms in the universe:-)
elliot n.
if it is discrete then the Internet is (unfortunately) rivalrous
steve k.
"If we posit an infinite bagel universe..."
steve c.
bagel multiverses:-)
Jerry M.
the bagel presages the toroid nature of universal logic
elliot n.
I think I had a toroid bagel for breakfast
Sep 6
11:10 AM
steve k.
The key is that a bagel needs to be curved in space time so that it encommapses the 4th dimension, creating an infnite bagel toroid continum that can be accesses as long as your 4th dimension machineis in order. We are still working on creating a bridge to the cream cheese hypercube universe.
steve c.
aw ... just turn your bagels into coffee cups
steve k.
dont even mention lox - that is a very serious issue
Tom F.
But shouldn't we be thinking about how people act about the things? If an idea needs something whose supply is limited to be implemented, then we tend to treat the idea as rivalrous. RIght?
Richard W.
The notion that objects are either rivalrous or not seems too extreme. Aren't there contextual degrees of rivalry (a 1 kbps of bitstream vs. 10 Mbps may both be a rivalrous use of a 10 Mbps broadband connection, but one is comparatively less rivalrous vis-a-vis the available resource).
Jerry M.
Novy Lox Theory?
Peter K.
dpreed bookmark: information (shannon entropy) vs. ideas
elliot n.
perishable in a different way
elliot n.
more like a tv ad
Jerry M.
onward!
Frank P.
@Tom: on a high level it seems that way, but the rivalrous item in the recipe is the ingredient, not the recipe itself.
Richard W.
Vint don't know worm castings.
Greg E.
has entered the room
steve c.
minor point, but chip designs are tightly coupled to manufacturing
Jorge O.
has entered the room
Sep 6
11:15 AM
Peter K.
"standard replication argument"
Jerry M.
so limits to the dissemination of ideas (IP laws, etc) are limits to growth?
Greg E.
Is this "teach a man to fish and he will eat a lifetime?"
Greg E.
(assuming there are enough fish...)
Robin C.
bits constrain growth because they have finite capacity. Ideas+bits are still ultimately constrained. Seems like he is talking about ideas only things
elliot n.
more like "teach a man to fish and you can still teach his wife to fish"
Tom F.
Did we just have an "AH HA" moment? The world has long since shifted from selling photocopies to selling copiers. Can we draw a parallel to the Internet there? Are bits the copies, or are the things composed of bits?
Frank P.
@steve c: the reduced diagram of the chip design is tightly coupled, but the design is just a big picture on a wall, I think
David I.
I can't teach my wife to fish
Jerry M.
she already caught a fisherman. who's smart here?
David I.
good Tom!
Peter K.
constant returns: double the input, double the output. increasing returns: double the input, more than double the output.
David I.
Good Jerry :-)
elliot n.
do increasing returns to scale matter here?
steve k.
Steve c. extending the thought. Chip designs are actually tightly coupled to chip design software which are tightly coupled to manufacturing. However the chip design software could be seen as a non-rivalrous good (can be consumed many times without any wear). in fact, there is a nacent trend for the chip manufacturers (foundreis) to consider providng the software for free in order to secure the manufacturing orders. Illustration of using a non-rivalrous good to impact usage/demand for rivalrous good.
Jerry M.
let's not mix happiness here, unless we want to frame New Happiness Growth Theory
Greg E.
Does this not prove why open source creates more wealth faster than proprietary software models?
steve c.
nods ...
Sep 6
11:20 AM
Greg E.
Open Source communicates more increasing wealth ideas than proprietary software models. Proprietary software model is constant return for everyone save the company with the source code.
steve c.
science is mostly open source ,,, very old model that works well
steve k.
nice aha. goods per person vs ideas per total group. Seems like another place where our habit of tryin to scale things on a micro per person level misses impacts at scale ("per society" or "per humaity" basis) Echoes back to david reed's comments
elliot n.
YES YES YES
Peter K.
vint marker: software patents - do they interfere with the benefits of ideas
elliot n.
does anyone think ANY differently
elliot n.
?
Jerry M.
listening intently...
Don J.
NetApp sues Sun over "open source" ZFS: http://blogs.netapp.com/dave/2007/09/netap…
Peter K.
cj: ideas lead to the failure of the invisible hand result
Richard W.
poor broadband also limits the dissemination (up and down) of new ideas.
Peter K.
prices allocate objects (doing one thing); but in the world of ideas, prices have to do two things: allocate, and incentivize
Sep 6
11:25 AM
Charles G.
ideas need to be publicized to make them valuable and that's exactly what patents were set up to encourage (re trade secrets) ...so patents aren't all bad although they do seem to make an idea rivalrous for the term of the patent
Doc S.
He who receives an idea from me receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. - jefferson
elliot n.
@ don; and the most striking thing about sun vs net app is how much corporate energy and revenue on BOTH sides will be completely wasted. completely.
Peter K.
in invisible hand, price == marginal cost
Peter K.
but that doesn't account for up-front fixed cost
kc c.
i don't think the non-rivalrous or the perishable aspect of a communication commons is so profound as the ([benkler again]) radical distribution of the capital needed to produce the goods that have the growing/substantial economic value in society. we've seen perishable (airline seats) and non-rivalrous (tv) before. i thought the new thing here was the radical distribution of the capital inputs used to make the goods society values highly
Tom F.
It's been well shown (Jared Diamond) that the generation rate of good ideas is quite limited, that there is a significant limit on their rate of diffusion (you benefit more if you are near the source), and they all die of old age (eventually supplanted or even lost - the Australian Abos lost the bow and arrow). Its a flow dynamics picture.
Robin C.
but that argument is identical to the fixed costs. while prices are set at marginal costs, we don't have incentive to build the first factory. Same idea with idea creation
elliot n.
@ peter; price == marginal cost only in equilibrium. at that point (arguably) fixed cost has been recovered
elliot n.
software patents = BAD; business process patents = WORSE!
Robin C.
so how different are upfront fixed costs from incentives for idea generation?
Robin C.
Answer to my own question: factory up front costs power only productive capacity of that factory. Idea can power millions of factories
Anders F.
In 1994 Paul Romer articulated a decentralized approach complementing government intervention: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli…
elliot n.
russia vs china; russia had/has a kleptocracy, china has a large measure of benevolence (not a human rights comment here) in its governance
Sep 6
11:30 AM
elliot n.
I would also argue that china's lack of IP protection is NOT a bug but feature.
Jorge O.
A feature that has contributed to the gorwth of China at this stage of their economy
Jorge O.
IP protection favors the guys that have more ideas, not necessarily the ones that need them most
steve k.
russia versus china: My own sense was the economists assumed that a legal system would be respected but russia's entire communist economy was based on getting around a non-market system to create a shadow market so goods services could be exchanged. so people not only have no respect for systems, they insitnctively try and subvert/get around it. In China, the communist system they introduced is/was much more grounded in existing collective norms and so changing the system has retained that grounding. In russia, the norms are much less conducive to coherent above-ground action with an agreed set of rules (or something like that)
elliot n.
ideas < execution and IP laws favor i) ideas over execution and ii) entrenched interests.
elliot n.
IP also favors capital concentration and legal resources
elliot n.
none of which is beneficial
Doc S.
its tubes after all
Jerry M.
tubes all the way down
Jerry M.
tubes with turtles?
Sep 6
11:35 AM
Doc S.
tubles.
Tom F.
So in the absence of patents how do you fund the development of ideas? There are many situations where the "invention process" costs much more than the total of the implementation; it's not limited to software.
Doc S.
so VATs are bad?
Jerry M.
just what I was thinkin', Doc
Douglas F.
Russia's economic growth has been strongly driven by commodities (e.g. oil and gas), which are easier for government to capture revenue from. China's economic growth has been driven by manufactured products.
Robin C.
and carbon taxes?
Greg E.
Tom: How much of "funding of ideas" is actually funding of "viable implementations of ideas"?
elliot n.
@ tom; my comments do not relate to (for example) drug research. I know NOTHING about that. for software and business processes the reward is in the execution. patent protection acts as gravy NOT incentive. all imho.
elliot n.
in other words the behavior I have seen and experienced is "now that we have done this thing for our strategic business purposes can we maybe patent it and squeeze even more money from it?"
Robin C.
exactly right Susan. We need to support and facilitate the information economy, and tax the bits/nonsustainable economy (carbon taxes). Let's switch the incentives
Doc S.
"There are two things that lawmakers don't understand. One is technology and the other is economics. Now proceed." -- Michael Powell, Bighook '06
Sep 6
11:40 AM
Peter K.
greg, funding viable implementations of ideas helps generate new ideas
steve k.
Doc S. LOL. its a miracle we manage to lurch from day to day...
elliot n.
isn't inner city broadband the greatest education subsidy one could make??
Peter K.
elliot, good point
Douglas F.
Not without computers in the homes of the inner city, electricty to power them, and training to use them.
Greg E.
Pete K: I agree. Just wondering about the value of making the distinction, especially in regard to policy.
Robin C.
and what ideas can be generated when transmission of bits is ubiquitous and free?
elliot n.
@doug; agree with computers but not electricity and training (at least not for young people)
Scott B.
who thinks that the government funding the Internet was a bad idea - the traditional telecom companies think the Net is a bad idea that needs to be fixed (maybe by adopting the ITU-T NGN proposals) since it "does not work"
elliot n.
I leave the computer point to negroponte
Robin C.
ubiquitous wireless access will start with pointless uses, and transition or allow for more interesting uses.
Greg E.
Example: I think it is a myth that war is a driver for technological innovation. I think war is often a driver for government to fund existing ideas to implementation.
Doc S.
good point, Scott.
Scott B.
war also increases the pressure to bring ideas to real world usability
steve k.
greg e - good point
Greg E.
Scott B.: Completely agree.
Peter K.
Scott, but so does a healthy space program (for instance)
Douglas F.
Bringing ideas to usability then leads to the creation of new ideas
Don J.
Agree in general, but current war doesn't seem to be motivating much good investment and behavior
Sep 6
11:45 AM
steve k.
someone inthe back left is wrking on a program that is making very quiet "bong bong" noises. sounds like a video game. any way to shut that off?
Greg E.
hmmm. What is the Internet then - is it ALL the networks, or is just the *ideas* that enable the interoperability.
Peter K.
steve k, sure it's not a buoy?
Doc S.
We are all feeling different parts of the elephant we are also making... while it might not be an elephant.
Greg E.
I don't want the government to fund Dewayne
Scott B.
interstate highway system == socialism ?
steve k.
Of course, anyone who looked at the US today from the perspective of the 1900's, they would call us socialists
Jerry M.
steve k, it's the sound this chat makes if you haven't turned your sound off
Scott B.
(I admit that Ike used military threats to drive the initial funding)
Greg E.
I don't want the government to fund Dewayne's or David R's network (b/c who can do their networks better than them). But I think I want the government to fund (support) the interoperability of those networks.
Jerry M.
no, that's assuming that ideas are expressable only as alpha strings.
elliot n.
or greg, to fund primary research at universities that dewayne and david can take advantage of and makes their work easier. AND to not allow others to own those ideas.
Scott B.
peter k - re space program - but recall that much of history of the space program (the early years) was painted as a cold war
Don J.
discrimination between good ideas, bad ideas, and noise
Jerry M.
Library of Babylon, thousand monkeys... still hugely limited by linear language. see Alphabet vs the Goddess
steve c.
right jerry
Doc S.
Turns out End to End is a useful value.
Peter K.
heh, good point, Scott (and Ike's interstate system, too)
elliot n.
not only gains value but is also improved upon!
Jerry M.
Jerry M.
Real Option
Jerry M.
s
steve k.
After a 20+ year swing to the right poslitically in the US, I think we are starting a 20 year swing to the left (worryingly this culd be the protectionist/re-distributive flavor of left). gross and unfair characterization is "20's to 50's boomers celebrating/focusng gettin as much as you can for yourself" to "65+ boomers focusing more on keeping what they've got and/or making sure sciety cares for their increasing needs/depedency"
Sep 6
11:50 AM
steve k.
rivatize the gains, socialize the costs. oldest game around in politics
Jerry M.
elliot n.
that would make david r = bob parsons
Casey L.
predictability and control of a wireless network is important (though not essential) to the development of a whole realm of municipal applications (meter reading, video surveillance, public safety, traffic etc. etc). Having "plenty of wireless around" at coffeeshops isn't enough. Government can play a role in ensuring that that the network is there.
steve k.
Nasim Taleb's book black swan is about how we systematicaly mis-valu optios because the world as it existis is dfferent from our mental models of how we would like the world to be...
Doc S.
the internet eliminates the fewest options: DR
Doc S.
Number of potential options = number of ends
Don J.
DReed: You could patent everything, but then you would be Nathan Myhrvold :-) and :-(
Doc S.
commons as procrastination systems.
Greg E.
Casey L: Excellent point.
Scott B.
one of the big fights in the IETF a few years ago was the teleco folks trying to get the IETF to understand that voice is more important than all other uses and needed to get special handling to ensure perfection
Doc S.
or procrastination platforms
Doc S.
substitute inifinite-idea-option-prove-out grade for "carrier grade"
steve k.
occurs to me tha large stable organizations dislike highly option-rich economic envionments because that increases the risk of massive state/phase changes that they are too big/slow to react to. so they systematically try and damp down the range of possible optios to keep the system path dependent in a way that sustains tem. would a slim mold like to make its home in an option rich ecosystem or an option poor one?
Frank P.
Black-Scholes vs. Black Holes
Doc S.
Flies are our rivals for lunch
Douglas F.
Douglas F.
Joel Mokyr (Economic Historian @ Northwestern) has published several detailed papers that explore the part that 'useful' knowledge plays in economic growth, and some of the plitical and other barriers.
Sep 6
11:55 AM
elliot n.
that sounds like network vs applications
Doc S.
Vint: net is physical. then there's this virtual world arising out of it. Should we separate the physical world that makes it possible and the virtual world that it supports? Can we take this complex system and disaggregate it?
Jorge O.
has left the room
Don J.
Please please excuse my cynicism, but a professor of economics has concluded that government funding of graduate school education is a good thing?
Jerry M.
Pat Letterman? David, did I get her name right? Name of her store?
Sep 6
12:00 PM
Jerry M.
Britt B.
has entered the room
Britt B.
Doc Searls video on dinner plate tectonics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec-YrUaeXAE
Doc S.
That's Doc 20 years ago, when he was still funny.
kc c.
re physical world and virtual world, i also think the regulatory (is that virtual or physical?) layer that promoted the physical/virtual/magical Internet is underrecognized as formative. esp as barbara said yesterday, part of our problem is that we've gone too far in 'innovating' that regulatory layer that made the internet possible.
elliot n.
there was only a roughly < 50 year period when the US had slavery and ROW didn't
Sep 6
12:05 PM
Doc S.
Push point.... are prices the best, much less the only, incentives? Many highly leveraged ideas were incentivized by the simple need to build useful stuff. The amazing thing about the Net is that something profoundly simple at its base is so highly supportive.
Don J.
I am not sure about this, but it seems like as societies move up Maslow's heirarchy, they will start to realize things like slavery (and pollution) are bad, and they will start to worry about these issues and try to fix this problems
elliot n.
I am sure about that doc :-)
Peter K.
bookmark for some other time: the concept of homo economicus vs. the concept of homo sociologicus
elliot n.
isn't that "and" not "or" peter?
Peter K.
elliot, yes, it should be :-)
Tom F.
So russia behavied/behavies like it does because it's russia, not because it was/is Communist?
Sep 6
12:10 PM
elliot n.
@ tom yes! again, contrast with china
Douglas F.
Russia behaves like it does because of culture, AND because it can (gov't in power can easily capture value from selling access to commodities).
steve c.
has left the room
Doc S.
Somehow this relates... "How to make infrastructure": http://www.searls.com/doc/presentations/20…
Sep 6
12:15 PM
Doc S.
There are pieces there that JP Rangaswami would enlarge if he were here.
Barbara C.
has left the room
Sep 6
12:20 PM
Jerry M.
what was the name of that beautiful song?
Peter K.
jerry, I think it was "Down In The Willow Garden"
Jerry M.
alas, I'm being pulled away by paying work. I head out after lunch. thanks, everyone! I'm jerry@sociate.com if you wanna communicate
Sep 6
12:30 PM
steve c.
Sep 6
2:15 PM
David I.
Here the "private entrepreneurs" who provided "lighthouses" were called Moon Cussers! (Pirates)
steve k.
has entered the room
steve k.
never let facts get in the way of a good myth
Barbara C.
has entered the room
Doc S.
"interesting" is midwestern for "bad".
Doc S.
"you bet" is midwestern for "good".
Sep 6
2:20 PM
kc c.
agree that there is a lot of 'not new' stuff to talk about infrastructure and economics. not to drive these bits into the earth's infrastructure, but benkler spends a few hundred pages illustrating what's 'new' about this network infrastructure: radical decentralization of capital inputs into society's goods, ie., comm/comp. in hands of (not yet to be confused w 'owned by') individuals. benkler (and i) am interested in how to craft policy to at least not bias against this radically decentralized form of production of goods, or maybe in some cases promote it.
steve c.
technologies evolve O(10yr) evolution is O(10^5yr)
David I.
I'm thinking about how long the fables of a certain presidential administration might last . . .
Tom F.
has left the room
David I.
Cell phones: voice is the killer app.
steve c.
give a kid a choice of loosing Net or their cellphone...
Robin C.
has entered the room
David I.
and? Steve?
Robin C.
not clear to me which way kids would chooose. Depends on the kid. Some are totally cell phone focused (more girls); others internet focused (boys and those big collaborative games)
Jorge O.
My kids would loose their cellphones anytime vs their net connections... your milege may vary :-)
Sep 6
2:25 PM
steve c.
the kids I know would give up their pcs...
steve c.
so we live in anecdote space
David I.
last year we learned that the developing world "Internet" is spelled "Cell Phone"
Greg E.
has entered the room
Greg E.
Pip, Doug, Jean, Steve - Maybe Andrew's point about "fraud" is about the power of human storytelling?
steve k.
Another lighthouse example. the maginot line becomes a symbol for the the "mistake" of trying to hunker down behind defensive fortifcations. However, that was never intended/designed role. The actual role - to deflect/concentrate an attack onto ground of your choosing - remains totally valid but ignored. The maginot line actually worked as designed by channeling a German attack into a known, narrower front with a weak flank to the west. The other equal element of th maginot plan was that an invading german army wuld be met by a substantial, mobile, mechanized French army group to slow, contain, and counterattack the invading germans on ground of its choosing. When the war came up, however, the original plan had been forgotten/nickel and dimed. The maginot line did what it was supposed to do, but the french had starved/failed to build the mobile units to meet the attack. To the channeled german attack just kept on going. The total plan failed, but the fortifications were never intended to be hid behind. anyway - wil stop ranting. sms next
elliot n.
voice is not net neutral? "friends and family", "my 5", etc. are decidedly NOT net neutral
steve k.
SMS founder "According to Cor Stutterheim from CMG, "It started as a message service, allowing operators to inform all their own customers about things such as problems with the network. When we created SMS (Short Messaging Service) it was not really meant to communicate from consumer to consumer and certainly not meant to become the main channel which the younger generation would use to communicate with each other," added Stutterheim."
elliot n.
nor is international voice!
Sep 6
2:30 PM
kc c.
nods elliot, he also lost me on 'flat rate', i (unintentionally) paid $5/min from beijing to san diego a couple years ago from my tmobile cell
Jorge O.
Caller Pay prevalent in Europe and Third world is anything but "net neutral" it taxes fixed lines in favor of mobile...
steve k.
SMS was an accidental success that took nearly everyone in the mobile industry by surprise. Few people predicted that this hard of use service would take off. There was hardly any promotion for or mention of SMS by network operators until after SMS started to be a success
David I.
right elliot. also the cellcos discriminate against all kinds of other apps!
Douglas F.
Telus (3rd Canadian Carrier) has a net neutral Friends package, that does not restrict the target carrier of your friends
Douglas F.
aimed at students
Jorge O.
SMS was carried on signaling links (SS7), so it makes sense that it was not designed as a open service..
scrawford
andrew's point is that voice unlike those other apps is basically (caveats) neutral, and that's where the revenue is
kc c.
is reminded of 2005 bighook quote "ringtones. i missed ringtones!"
Robin C.
rats. I zoned out. what has that amazing fact about the us?
steve k.
Somwehere out there is a great piece going into all of the simple, ligtweight, easy-interconnect qualities of SMS that made it so successful but were/are anathema to a "designed" carrier service. Case in point is how badly the carriers failed with MMS (picture messaging) because they intentionally "designed" it with features and contraints (esp. inter-carier roaming) that made it too difficult to adopt - so it wasnt.
elliot n.
cheapest price per minute
Britt B.
has entered the room
steve k.
Minutes of Use in the USis about 1600-1800 minutes a month or something like that. Europe is more like 250-400 (those numbers are off the top of my head)
scrawford
early Bell advice was not to use the phone for social purposes
scrawford
salespeople were told to discourage social use. it was a "serious" medium.
scrawford
but they were wrong.
Sep 6
2:35 PM
David I.
didn't the Internet get adapted faster than any other comms method?
Sep 6
2:40 PM
scrawford
steve k - I want to write that piece about sms - great idea
scrawford
there's a temporal aspect to this - we systematically overpredict immediate impact of any new technology, and underpredict its long-term impact
Tim D.
has entered the room
Scott B.
off topic - national security letters ruled unconstitutional - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte…
elliot n.
yes susan. the predictions made in 2000 at the height of the bubble, for Internet advertising in 2007 were all exceeded!
Douglas F.
Gartner refers to that as the Hype Cycle, including the Peak of Inflated Expectations, the Trough of Disillusionment, and the Slope of Enlightenment
chad j.
Robert Fogel (economic historian) studied the numbers and argued that railroads added surprisingly little to economic growth in the U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fogel
Sep 6
2:45 PM
elliot n.
gartner creates the hype cycle! :-)
David I.
Doc, she just dropped the F-bomb -- framing, that is :-)
elliot n.
there was always a threat in the ISP world of refusing to peer. first UUNet, then MCI.
Ewan M.
has entered the room
steve k.
dont forget the tubes! the average citizen's view
Tim D.
accidental peering loss happens a lot, and is routed around
kc c.
elliot -- 'was'?
elliot n.
kc, yes. '95-'98 or so
Sep 6
2:50 PM
elliot n.
I haven't heard that in a LONG time
Sep 6
2:50 PM
Richard W.
elliot, the backbones were less concentrated (and there were more of them) in the '90s than today.
Scott B.
re" refusing to peer" - not so simple - refusing to peer unless there is a balance of business interest is closer to the case
elliot n.
true scott
Doc S.
to the average citizen, the net is not tubes. It's something else that they pay for on their cable or phone bills.
elliot n.
for a small ISP that was implied :-)
kc c.
i believe mci/verizon's requirements for peering are more stringent (against small isps) than ever.
Tim D.
settleemnt free pairing was and is the fulcrum of thenet backbone
Richard W.
paid peering also is on the rise.
elliot n.
richard, the threat and rumor was the worst right after the whoe UUNet/MFS/MCI tie up
David I.
graphic, dynamic, ****isochronous***, interactive, multimedia, persistent, searchable . . .
Scott B.
e.g., AT&T builds a huge backbone but has few customers - big ISPs refuse to peer (peer=cost charing interconnection) because they would not be getting much traffic from AT&T -
Tim D.
sure, as is content distribution network geoproximity and peering
Richard W.
sure, although WorldCom was required to divest the MCI backbone.
kc c.
timd, i've also heard it was the fulcrum of the telecom crash -- utter lack of fiscal recourse for anything (not to mention spam/viri/malware/etc)
Doc S.
Tim Nulty has interesting things to say about the Net as a service bought wholesale from backboners and sold retail to customers. (Correct me if I got that wrong, Tim.)
Ewan M.
test
Tim D.
well that plus creative debt structuring by the now dark fiber guys
elliot n.
congratulations ewan! you passed.
Tim D.
Enron Broadband anyone?
David I.
there is value in finding the simplest set of rules that explains a phenomenon
David I.
call it complexity or shlmexity
Sep 6
2:55 PM
Tim D.
SFP isn't without technical recourse - ie. it may be free, but don't dump malware on your peers - NANOG etc.
steve k.
the fulcrum of the telecm crash was huge over-investment in a few elements of a total system (long-haul optical and voice switching) without enough investment in other elements (mostly last mile access). so you ended up with a lot of gear in place bu generating no returns. So the companies founded on that gear go splat, the ear is re-sold in place at pennies on the dollar, much of it is NEVER used (e.g. the class 5 voice switches), and we are now starting to overbuild the rest of it.
elliot n.
fat pipes!
steve k.
think of the 1st round of airline deregulation. A lot of planes are bought, the underlying business models fail, some planes get re-used, but the rest justsit out there in the desert (once a plane gets old eough, there is no prce at which it is economic to fly - why 727 is gone - optics and routers are much the same).
Tim D.
Cmmr Tate is trying to stop cereal and candy companies advertizing fatty food products on kids tv.
elliot n.
does "cmmr" = commisar?
Peter K.
has entered the room
steve k.
FYI 0 the old MCI backbone (I think it was once NSFnet) still lives. sold to cable and wreless, then sold on to Savvis (along with the data center assets of the former Exodus). still chugging along there. They just bouht a whol bunch of gear to expand capacity.
kc c.
timd -- yes, technical recourse is why we still have a working net today. lack of fiscal recourse is why we still have no (accepted) sustainable business model for it.
Sep 6
3:00 PM
Richard W.
glad to see the mci network is still alive -- c&w almost drove it into the ground.
elliot n.
did she call kc "wild-eyed"??
elliot n.
my son helped clean karl rove's car last wednesday! film on AP
elliot n.
steve k.
And by the way, the data center market is suddenly tight again. Huge criss in corproate data centers - running out of power/cooling capacity rather than space. So 3rd party data center pricing has been up about 50% YoY for the past 2 years. brings back the meories, no?
steve k.
Richard W. - Savvis nearly finished the job. Their business finally picked up and Cisco gave them a bunch of vendor financing.
Barbara C.
It's called bad "emotional intelligence".
Tim D.
Wait - So Karl Rove is a dick?
Doc S.
Shows that the current White House, for all its awfulness on other grounds, has been flat-out incompetent for the duration.
steve c.
so is the VP
Don J.
who knew?
Tim D.
my bad for bringing the tone down.... back to Susan
Jorge O.
steve k.
Doc s - perhaps all the awfulness is due to flat-out incomeptence... :-)
elliot n.
is that a function of his lack of charm or his bad ideas?
elliot n.
susan has WAY better ideas than rove!
Sep 6
3:05 PM
Doc S.
agreed, Steve. could be.
Greg E.
On Karl Rove's incompetence: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/michae…
Richard W.
one web day shows that susan knows how to build communities just fine.
Barbara C.
Daniel Goleman wrote a great book, "Emotional Intelligence". IQ is a threshold competence, but good EQ is what differentiates performance on the job -- empirically supported results.
Peter K.
Richard W.
cue scary music
michael w.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Economic growth is a total sell at the local level. Cities and counties can get it. But then the carriers aren't lobbying at that level.
Doc S.
At the federal level it'll be much harder.
steve k.
The reason we no longer goand talk to the poor? because some people have set themselves in a role where they claim to be the "voice" of the poor and its pretty tough o get around them to real life poor people and its so much easier to get a meeting with the self-nominated rperesentatives?
Peter K.
pepper: coalition building, reality checking with others
Tom F.
has entered the room
Frank P.
state Public Utilities Commissions need to be better empowered...
Richard W.
fcc chairman martin shares that approach with the white house: insularity becomes a presumed virtue.
Doc S.
I've heard (maybe Vint can tell us) that the *majority* of searches are for porn. Even if not true, it's freaking huge.
Desiree M.
has entered the room
Richard W.
i think it's 7 percent.
Barbara C.
John Kingdon (political scientist) wrote a great book providing a useful framework for thinking about how policymaking process works. He identifies different streams of activity (agenda setting, solution development, concensus-building) that have to be coupled during windows of opportunities to produce policy outcomes. Those instrumental in the coupling process are called policy entrepreneurs.
Sep 6
3:10 PM
Greg E.
Robin: you sent me a message? (try "wiredbike" on aim)
Robin C.
phew, back in now
Greg E.
Oh. Sorry.
Sep 6
3:15 PM
chad j.
After 50 years, growth at 3.5% instead of 3.0% means you are about 27% richer: (1.03500 / 1.03)^50 = 1.27396136
Sep 6
3:15 PM
Doc S.
Andy: two new vocab terms... 1) quality of connection; 2) quality of oneness.
Peter K.
amaffei: "quality of connection", "quality of oneness"
steve k.
wow this is cool - University of California at Santa Cruz professor Luca de Alfaro is leading the Wiki Lab. Its latest project gauges the trustworthiness of authors. It looks at all entries submitted by Wikipedia authors and analyzes whether they've been edited, deleted, or expanded. Trustworthy lines display normally. The more text is edited, the more the Wiki Lab's tool highlights it in variants of orange. Right now, trust coloring is just a demo, but hopefully this will serve to dissuade gullible schoolchildren -- a category in which we include most journalists -- from using Wikipedia as a primary source.
Aaron S.
has left the room
Doc S.
source link, Steve?
Greg E.
Chad - doesn't your calculation imply a constant returns and ignore the possibilities of ideas?
Peter K.
Doc, UCSC Wiki Lab: http://trust.cse.ucsc.edu/
Robin C.
to what extent does the internet enable groups of people to act like slime mold? That is a great thought that really captures the finest aspects of the internet.
steve k.
wikipedia link trust thing - http://valleywag.com/tech/loser_generated-…
Sep 6
3:20 PM
elliot n.
has left the room
Tom F.
has left the room
chad j.
(Greg) Maybe. Just the narrow answer to the question: if we were to grow faster by 0.5%, how much richer would we be?
Peter K.
tangent: wikiscanner, lists anonymous wikipedia edits from interesting organizations/IP ranges: http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/
Scott B.
land line telco have very much less than 2-9s reliability (if you are measuring the ability for starting people to people communication) - so looking for 5-9s makes little sense (rephrasing Andy)
Sara W.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Vocabularies arise out of conceptual metaphors, or "frames". these are what we talk "in terms of". Literally. I think Andy's suggestions are both from the frame of the Net as a place. An environment. Not a mess 'o pipes, or a transport system for "content". Got more thoughts there, but wanna hear kc.
steve k.
thank god the forces of revanchism are this dumb - "Universal Music Group and the major labels are about to begin rolling out something called a "RINGLE." You know, like a single? Except this will be 3 songs packaged together with a ringtone and wallpaper image for your cell phone. The truly idiotic part? These will be physical shipped goods that will be stocked in retailers across the country. Wal-Mart and Best Buy have already jumped on board to start carrying RINGLES. If you break down the cost of 3 songs on iTunes, a typical ringtone, and wallpaper, you get around $6.00. RINGLES will sell in stores for $5.98, but will most likely be on sale and discounted to around $4.00-$4.50."
steve c.
has left the room
steve k.
OK - one mroe on that - "What kind of crazy fucked up world do we live in where you can keep 40,000 songs IN YOUR POCKET and the labels think a reasonable price for each and every one of them is a buck, IF NOT A $1.29 IF YOU WANT THEM SANS DRM!It's like we're living in the twilight zone. "
Sep 6
3:25 PM
steve k.
Barbara C.
Great line from the movie, "Other People's Money", spoken by Danny DeVito. Lawyers are like nuclear weapons. You've got to have them, but the minute you use them it f___ everything up!"
Sara W.
non random data is not good....really not god
Sara W.
i meant good
Sara W.
volunteers providing data = major self selection bias
Sara W.
you need the full range of variation to run the numbers right
Sara W.
if you have major non-response or self selection bias you can't really learn what is going on
Andrew M.
has entered the room
Sep 6
3:30 PM
Sara W.
a propos of something or nothing, i am totally interested in the non-geek-population adoption dilemma
Sara W.
that is, technology adoption
scrawford
me too - that's why I'm always onewebday-ing
Sara W.
....depends on how you define dramatic
Sara W.
scrawford: what is onewebday-ing?
Tim D.
has left the room
scrawford
onewebday.org
scrawford
an earth day for the internet
Sara W.
ok, will go there now. i know of some really cool stuff that is going on in philly. (well, to be fair, in my house)
elliot n.
has entered the room
elliot n.
elliot n.
looks like a blow to neutrality
Sara W.
but we're going viral (not in the infectious materials sense). i want to discuss this more (by this, i mean the problem writ large. no home-based dirty laundry, i promise)
kc c.
barbara -- milo medin was quoted as saying that about IPv6 (like nuclear weapons in that regard..)
scrawford
View paste
from MAP: Today, the Department of Justice
Antitrust Division filed comments with the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) on the issue of
"network neutrality" - whether broadband
providers such as AT&T, Comcast, and other
telephone and cable companies can monitor, filter,
or otherwise interfere with a subscribers use of
internet services or internet content.  The filing
parrots the industry arguments that adopting a
rule that would prevent telephone and cable
companies from monitoring and filtering internet
traffic would harm investment and innovation,
despite mounting evidence from Europe and Asia
that the opposite is true.

Harold Feld, Senior Vice President of the Media
Access Project, had the following statement in
response:

"It would seem that the President and the
Justice Department cannot do enough for AT&T
and the other companies that agreed to spy on the
American people.  Without network neutrality,
companies are free to turn over user information
without a warrant or block users from desired
content - as AT&T recently did 'accidentally'
by blocking Pearl Jam's criticism of the President
during a concert performance carried on AT&T's
broadband service."

Full Press Release at:
http://www.mediaaccess.org/press/2007-09-06-DOJ-
NNResponse.pdf
Sep 6
3:35 PM
Andrew M.
Quality of Connection = the measure of to what extent a technology, application, network, policy, belief etc. enables 2 human beings to clearly exchange experiences with one another. Note that exchange of ideas is considered an example of exchanging experience. ( metrics might include level of interoperability, fidelity of transmission, reliability of making connection, ubiquitisnous)
Andrew M.
Quality of Oneness = the measure of to what extent a technology, application, network, policy, beleif, etc. enables groups of human beings can act like slime mold. Metrics might include QoC level, number of connections supported at once, ability to entrain, etc.)
steve k.
great quote from fomer bighooker tom Evslin - "We the people like to own stuff and not pay rent to use it (BTW, rent includes taxes but that s another story). They the oligarchs like to own the stuff and charge us rent to use it. The rise of a middle class has historically meant the rise of a property-owning class. The underclass pays exorbitant rents."
steve k.
intersting how much this musette reminds me of tango.
Sara W.
all we need is one red rose.
Sara W.
oh, and 2 people who know how to tango. in the dancing sense of the word
steve k.
BIG GRIN
Sep 6
3:40 PM
Sara W.
http://philly.typepad.com/philastories/ People, even people who don't own computers, love to see themselves online. This guy recruited the other 5 remaining member of Engine 11 (Philly's erstwhile and sole all-black segregated, fire station) to be interviewed. They all got together and now they are inviting their families, etc. If they can find themselves on the web, they will come
scrawford
that's so beautiful!
Sep 6
3:50 PM
Sep 6
4:15 PM
chad j.
has entered the room
David I.
hello world
Scott B.
world "hello David"
Sep 6
4:25 PM
Peter K.
public calling requires: serve upon reasonable request; w/o unreasonable discrimination; just price; with adequate care and skill
Aaron S.
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Sep 6
4:30 PM
elliot n.
has entered the room
Peter K.
View paste
Expanded: By virtue of their status as public
employments, public callings bore unique
obligations under tort law to serve upon
reasonable request without discrimination, to
charge reasonable ("just") prices, and
to exercise their calling with adequate care,
skill and honesty.
Frank P.
has entered the room
elliot n.
and the scope is greater in the US than in either canada or the uk
steve k.
why does Marin hate cable? my guess is they jerked him around on a home install apointment and/or raised rates sometime when he was 25 and he swore a vow of vengeance...
Peter K.
Once more, sorry: By virtue of their status as public employments, public callings bore unique obligations under tort law to serve upon reasonable request without discrimination, to charge reasonable ("just") prices, and to exercise their calling with adequate care, skill and honesty.
Tim D.
has entered the room
Tim D.
if only were it that simple
scrawford
Tim D.
my personal opinion is the Chariman has a need to keep high-fiving the religious right, and the cable industry's objection to ala carte and a [in his words] "meaningful" family friendy tier are a big part of it
Richard W.
has entered the room
Tim D.
but then, I am admittedly biased towards not regulating non-common carriers
Richard W.
put simply, cable is filth
Sep 6
4:35 PM
Tim D.
we offered a family tier, no one took it
Sep 6
4:35 PM
Richard W.
because people like filth
steve k.
because it didnt include ESPN?
Tim D.
Nielsen ratings would largely suggest that, yes
Tim D.
Not to go through the whole sordid history, but you remember Janet Jackson's nipple - the one that started this whole thing - appeared during a G rated sports cast
Richard W.
nn is a predictable allergic reaction to the fcc's deregulation regime
Ewan M.
has entered the room
Sep 6
4:40 PM
steve k.
This is really germane and one of coolest ideas/writings I've seen in a while http://blog.tomevslin.com/2007/09/rent-vs-…
Casey L.
is it possible to have a "nondiscriminatory access rule" while still permitting differentiated services? does access = service?
Tom F.
has entered the room
Sep 6
4:45 PM
steve k.
Casey L I would guess that's the common law part ofit. You insert a "reasonable man" (a judge/jury) into the equation to decide those isuesas they come up.
Sep 6
4:50 PM
Clegg I.
has entered the room
Douglas F.
The original common carriage law specifically provided for differentiated services and pricing for some goods (e.g. money, precious metals) due to the extra risk and care involved in their delivery. This would seem to be extensible to some types of high-value bits.
steve k.
hmmm.. imperial over-reach? "Apple Inc (AAPL.O), faced with an outcry from iPhone customers who bought the device before a sharp price cut, will offer them a $100 store credit, Chief Executive Steve Jobs said on Thursday"
Sep 6
4:55 PM
scrawford
Pavaspan
Peter K.
RIP
Peter K.
"parade of horribles" is a nice phrase, I didn't know it was a named thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parade_of_horribles
kc c.
i hope susan podcasts the classes she's designing/teaching this year..
Peter K.
yes!
Aaron S.
has left the room
Doc S.
comes to mind... "Rule of Flaw"...
Aaron S.
has entered the room
Sep 6
5:00 PM
elliot n.
sounds like a bribe!
elliot n.
mr. mayor.....want a new firetruck? it is bright and shiny!
elliot n.
and a beautiful shade of red
michael w.
and maybe it'll put the fire out in your house ;)
Casey L.
In the state-level franchise law battles, the cablecos have made a lot of allegations about localities asking for ridiculous quid pro quos in exchange for franchise rights...new football stadium was a favorite one, repeated in front of the U.S. Senate Commerce Committee. But when the cities asked for specifics as to where this occurred, they couldn't answer. [chirp, chirp]
elliot n.
what my cable company usually says to me is "please hold"
Sep 6
5:05 PM
kc c.
casey i heard kevin martin rattle off a bunch of such quid pro quos on a cspan-aired hearing. maybe the cities don't know, but the cablecos have been careful to give the fcc a lengthy list..
Tim D.
has left the room
scrawford
asking for quid pro quos also happens for zoning decisions - common practice. not that that makes it right.
Aaron S.
Tim: We need the stock price to keep going up so we can keep borrowing against it to keep maintaining our wires.
elliot n.
this backchannel needs a backchannel
kc c.
we need a sunlight foundation to uncover (and place on googlemaps) all the fire engines and elementary school auditoriums the cablecos have traded for our communications fabric?
elliot n.
oh and mr. mayor did I tell you that was a fire engine red ferrari! for you!
Casey L.
agreed, it's certainly not right. And there's nothing wrong with shedding light on the practice. I'm not sure it's all that widespread. Typically it's an Inet, plus 5% of gross revenue, as set forth in the cable act. Other additional stuff is a legacy from an earlier time.
scrawford
I agree that must carry is a bad idea.
Sep 6
5:10 PM
Frank P.
don't mess up my steganography... don't compress my paqckets
michael w.
operators can't even use lossless compression with this, it seems
scrawford
this is overreach, this must carry set of rules - but it's overreach because it's affecting cable in its capacity as a "speaker"
scrawford
it's different from their role as a transport provider for online data
steve k.
"HDTV" can vary from 19.2 megabits/sec (raw) t 9 megabits (reasonably compressed but not derades) to 3-6 megabits (the visibily compressed/corupted signal that AT&T is jamming down their too-small u-verse pipes and marketing as HDTV.
Sara W.
"this backchannel needs a backchannel" i agree!
Casey L.
scrawford - agreed. After all, it's not as if they're common carriers.
Tom F.
has left the room
Sep 6
5:15 PM
Aaron S.
You can make a backbackchannel by clicking on "Lobby" and then on "Create a new room".
Don J.
so, my counter-argument is that cable providers are offering applications (specifically telephony service) that compete with applications that your customers might want to run (eg Vonage). There is no regulation that prohibits you from blocking them, even if you aren't right now, and I think there should be a regulation/law that would prohibit a carrier from doing so. Even more interesting is that you have developed a QOS capability to support your own telephone service that is not available to other voice over broadband providers/competitors.
Sep 6
5:20 PM
Scott B.
but why should cable have to carry (and pay to carry) local TV signals when it benefits the TV station to get more viewers - why shouldn't the TV station be required to pay the cable company?
Clegg I.
reminds me of the issues about undocumented APIs at play in the MSFT antitrust case -- MSFT had undocumented APIs that only their applications folks new how to use, and only MSFT folks new when those were going to change
Clegg I.
but isn't it important to ask whether consumers can punish a provider for doing things (like blocking Vonage) by moving to another provider?
elliot n.
scott.....because the cable company was granted a franchise for the benefit of an area (town/county/state). they cannot, after paying the "firetruck" then say "we own this" in the same way that I own my car.
Sep 6
5:25 PM
Casey L.
scott/elliott - the FCC's explanation is that they want to preserve local broadcasts in the name of "localism". So they get some favorable treatment b/c they are content providers. Cablecos typically aren't.
Don J.
I agree with Elliot, there are resonsibilities that telcos and msos have (or should have) because they have been granted a franchise (and in some cases a monopoly)
Scott B.
elliot - I can see how it happened but do not see that the value balance makes sense - maybe regulate the fee that a cable company could charge but the sign on equation looks wrong to me
Scott B.
casey - that does not say why the cable company should have to pay
Casey L.
or, cablecos "traditionally" aren't content providers, I mean.
Clegg I.
precisely! even where it is not a monopoly, it is a significantly rare franchise
Sara W.
in other words, there is an aspect of the role configuration of the commercial provider of a 'public good' infrastructure that must be different from the straight return-to-the-investor model
Clegg I.
and so many of the same analytical frameworks apply
Clegg I.
or, what Sara just said
Sara W.
which is actually quite appropriate given that there are many invisible or unquantified subsidies to those providers that are in fact funded by the taxpayer
Jorge O.
has left the room
elliot n.
he said "big guys are involved therefore nothing will happen and things are ok right now"
Sep 6
5:30 PM
Sara W.
i favor little girls
Sara W.
jeez
Richard W.
has left the room
Doc S.
"If you don't sell scarcity but give away abundance, you keep the customer". Ja.
Sep 6
5:35 PM
Britt B.
ALL legislation is driven by BigCos and lobbyists. No new legislation will be designed to do the right thing. All of that is axiomatic.
Britt B.
SO: how could a "Net Neutrality" Act be either Neutral or a Net gain?
Don J.
Real Concert at 8pm, David writes on the "white board"
Sep 6
5:40 PM
Sep 6
8:35 PM
Peter K.
has entered the room
Peter K.
Joan and John Kanwisher
Sep 6
8:45 PM
Aaron S.
has entered the room
Peter K.
Sara W.
has entered the room
Britt B.
has entered the room
Scott B.
Sep 6
8:55 PM
Sara W.
follow up question: ever been bitten by a pretty girl? just curious
Douglas F.
has entered the room
Peter K.
how the rebreather came about: http://www.therebreathersite.nl/11_Closed%…
Frank P.
has entered the room
Adam P.
has entered the room
Peter K.
Sep 6
9:00 PM
Aaron S.
has left the room
chad j.
has entered the room
kc c.
has entered the room
Peter K.
john: "it's hard doing physiology without doing behavior"
Sep 6
9:05 PM
Sara W.
it's also hard to 'see' something if you don't have the eyes to 'see' it
Peter K.
in a predator-prey race (or a thoroughbred race) "the fourth decimal place determines the winner"
Sara W.
ergo--the problem is with the seer not with the seen
Sara W.
(this is a separate track--in parallel or not--who knows, with peter's)
Barbara C.
has entered the room
Sep 6
9:10 PM
Peter K.
all mammal circulation depends on just two things, "the molecular weight of hemoglobin and the diffusivity of oxygen"
Sara W.
aka a binge?
Peter K.
anecdote from the rebreather story: "My partner Kanwisher was on one of the advisory panels to NASA in connection with the Apollo program. Although he recommended using a mixed gas atmosphere in the Apollo capsule he was over-ridden by the engineers who felt that monitoring the PPO2 was too difficult. John knew better as he had been doing it for several years in conjunction with his work on respiration but the engineers prevailed. The result was the fire which killed three astronauts."
Sep 6
9:15 PM
Mark P.
has entered the room
Sep 6
9:20 PM
Barbara C.
has left the room
Sep 6
9:25 PM
Tom F.
has entered the room
Sep 6
9:30 PM
Britt B.
has left the room
Adam P.
View paste
something I'll talk about

<http://www.eaccess.net/service/about/
characteristic.html> shows DSL transmission /
distance from the NTT central office.  On most
products, 10-12Mbps should be Ok at around 2km.

<http://bbpromo.yahoo.co.jp/promotion/campaign/
discount1000/>, and offer page for Yahoo!BB DSL
(Yahoo japan is Softbank) average monthly cost
over a 15 month contract: $27.50  for 50MB, $23.50
for 12MB

And this talks about Traffic volume and patterns
<<http://www.soumu.go.jp/joho_tsusin/eng/
Statistics/pdf/070822_1.pdf>http://www.soumu.go
.jp/joho_tsusin/eng/Statistics/pdf/070822_1.pdf>
;

Washington Post
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/
article/2007/08/28/AR2007082801990_pf.html>
(Pepper and Vint quoted, so listen to them not me
:-)
Sara W.
has left the room
Aaron S.
has entered the room
Peter K.
Ken Cukier
Britt B.
has entered the room
Mark P.
has left the room
Sep 6
9:35 PM
chad j.
has left the room
Adam P.
View paste
Kenn's news:

Charlotte Lois Hanako Cukier (aka "Blasty") was born on August 30th at 4am. 

http://www.cukier.com/blasty.html
Britt B.
Robin Chase - Do you want to talk about auto-based, always on mesh routers?
Sep 6
9:40 PM
Sep 6
10:00 PM
steve k.
Lyrics
steve k.
View paste (16 more lines)
There is a house in New Orleans
 They call the Rising Sun
 And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
 And God I know I'm one

 My mother was a tailor
 She sewed my new bluejeans
 My father was a gamblin' man
 Down in New Orleans

 Now the only thing a gambler needs
 Is a suitcase and trunk
 And the only time he's satisfied
 Is when he's on a drunk

...
Dewayne H.
has left the room
Sep 6
10:05 PM
Greg E.
has entered the room
Greg E.
View paste
Busted flat in Baton Rouge, waitin' fer a train
When I's feeling nearly faded as my jeans
Bobby thumbed a diesel down, just before it rained
And rode us all the way to New Orleans
I pulled my harpoon out of my dirty red bandana
I's playing soft while Bobby sung the blues, n-yeah
Windshield wipers slapping time I's, holding Bobby's hand in mine
We sang every song that driver knew

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose
Nothing, I mean nothing honey if it ain't free, no no
Yeah feeling good was easy Lord when he sang the blues
You know feeling good was good enough for me
Good enough for me and my Bobby McGee.
Greg E.
View paste
From Kentucky coal mine to the California sun
Yeah Bobby shared the secrets of my soul
Through all kinds of weather, through everything we done
Yeah Bobby baby kept me from the cold world
One day a near Selina Lord, I let him slip away
He's lookin' for that home, and I hope he finds it
But I'd trade all of my tomorrows for one single yesterday
To be holdin' Bobby's body next to mine

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose
Nothing, and that's all that Bobby left me, yeah
But feeling good was easy Lord when he sang the blues
Hey feeling good was good enough for me, hmm-mm
Good enough for me and Bobby McGee.
Greg E.
View paste
    Row, row, row your boat,
    Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
    Life is but a dream. 
Sep 6
10:10 PM
Greg E.
View paste
Through early morning fog I see
Visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now i know that it's too late, and....
Sep 6
10:15 PM
Greg E.
View paste
The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
So this is all I have to say.

the only way to win is to cheat
and lay it down before i'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...
Greg E.
View paste
A brave man once requested me
To answer questions that are key
Is it to be or not to be
And I replied 'oh why ask me?'

cause suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please,
and you can do the same thing if you please
Greg E.
View paste (2 more lines)
ow many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
...
Peter K.
has left the room
Sep 6
10:20 PM
Greg E.
Ok how about...
Greg E.
View paste
 Come and listen to a story about a man named Jed
A poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed,
Then one day he was shootin at some food,
And up through the ground came a bubblin' crude.

Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea.

Well the first thing you know ol' Jed's a millionaire,
Kinfolk said Jed move away from there
Said Californy is the place you ought to be
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
steve k.
Long balck veil -jonny cash
steve k.
View paste (8 more lines)
Ten years ago, on a cold dark night
Someone was killed, 'neath the town hall light
There were few at the scene, but they all agreed
That the slayer who ran, looked a lot like me

The judge said son, what is your alibi
If you were somewhere else, then you won't have to die
I spoke not a word, thou it meant my life
For I'd been in the arms of my best friend's wife

Chorus
She walks these hills in a long black veil
She visits my grave when the night winds wail
Nobody knows, nobody sees
Nobody knows but me
...
Sep 6
10:25 PM
Doc S.
has entered the room
steve k.
View paste
Chorus
She walks these hills in a long black veil
She visits my grave when the night winds wail
Nobody knows, nobody sees
Nobody knows but me

Oh, the scaffold is high and eternity's near
She stood in the crowd and shed not a tear
But late at night, when the north wind blows
In a long black veil, she cries ov're my bones

Repeat Chorus
Doc S.
View paste
Oh, the scaffold is high and eternity's near
She stood in the crowd and shed not a tear
But late at night, when the north wind blows
In a long black veil, she cries ov're my bones
steve k.
View paste
I hear the train a comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since, I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison,
And time keeps draggin' on,
But that train keeps a-rollin',
On down to San Antone.

steve k.
View paste
Riding on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central Monday morning rail
Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail.
All along the southbound odyssey
The train pulls out at Kankakee
Rolls along past houses, farms and fields.
Passin' trains that have no names,
Freight yards full of old black men
And the graveyards of the rusted automobiles.
steve k.
View paste
CHORUS:
Good morning America how are you?
Don't you know me I'm your native son,
I'm the train they call The City of New Orleans,
I'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.

Britt B.
has entered the room
Sep 6
10:30 PM
elliot n.
has entered the room
elliot n.
View paste (5 more lines)
Look a-yonder comin'
Comin' down that railroad track
Hey, look a-yonder comin'
Comin' down that railroad track
It's the Orange Blossom Special
Bringin' my baby back

Well, I'm going down to Florida
And get some sand in my shoes
Or maybe California
And get some sand in my shoes
I'll ride that Orange Blossom Special
And lose these New York blues

Hey, talk about a-ramblin'
...
steve k.
View paste (4 more lines)


Johnny Cash, Folsom Prison Blues Lyrics
Looking for Johnny Cash tabs and chords? Browse alphabet (above) 

Artist: Cash Johnny
Song: Folsom Prison Blues
Album: At Folsom Prison Buy Johnny Cash Sheet Music
Buy Johnny Cash CDs 

I hear the train a comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since, I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison,
...
steve k.
View paste
When I was just a baby,
My Mama told me, "Son,
Always be a good boy,
Don't ever play with guns,"
But I shot a man in Reno,
Just to watch him die,
When I hear that whistle blowin',
I hang my head and cry.
elliot n.
View paste (9 more lines)
As a young man I went riding out on the western plain
In the state of North Dakota I met my Nellie Kane
I met my Nellie Kane

She was livin' in a lonely cabin with a son by another man
For five years she had waited for him as long as a woman can
Long as a woman can

   I don't know what changed my mind
   Till then I was the ramblin' kind
   The kind of love I can't explain
   That I had for Nellie Kane

She took me on to work that day to help her till the land
In the afternoon we planted seed, in the evenin' we held hands
...
steve k.
View paste
 bet there's rich folks eatin',
In a fancy dining car,
They're probably drinkin' coffee,
And smokin' big cigars,
But I know I had it comin',
I know I can't be free,
But those people keep a-movin',
And that's what tortures me.

Sep 6
10:35 PM
steve k.
View paste (30 more lines)
]

Johnny Cash, Folsom Prison Blues Lyrics
Looking for Johnny Cash tabs and chords? Browse alphabet (above) 

Artist: Cash Johnny
Song: Folsom Prison Blues
Album: At Folsom Prison Buy Johnny Cash Sheet Music
Buy Johnny Cash CDs 

I hear the train a comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since, I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison,
...
elliot n.
View paste (9 more lines)
As a young man I went riding out on the western plain
In the state of North Dakota I met my Nellie Kane
I met my Nellie Kane

She was livin' in a lonely cabin with a son by another man
For five years she had waited for him as long as a woman can
Long as a woman can

   I don't know what changed my mind
   Till then I was the ramblin' kind
   The kind of love I can't explain
   That I had for Nellie Kane

She took me on to work that day to help her till the land
In the afternoon we planted seed, in the evenin' we held hands
...
elliot n.
View paste
She took me on to work that day to help her till the land
In the afternoon we planted seed, in the evenin' we held hands
In the evenin' we held hands

Her blue eyes told me everything a man could want to know
It was then I realized that I would never go
I would never go

Now many years have gone by and her son has grown up tall
I became a father to him and she became my all
She became my all


elliot n.
View paste
When I was a child my family would travel
Down to Western Kentucky where my parents were born
And there's a backwards old town that's often remembered
So many times that my memories are worn.

Chorus:
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
Sep 6
10:40 PM
elliot n.
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Well, sometimes we'd travel right down the Green River
To the abandoned old prison down by Adrie Hill
Where the air smelled like snakes and we'd shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill.

Repeat Chorus:

Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man.
elliot n.
View paste
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

elliot n.
View paste
Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man.
Britt B.
has left the room
elliot n.
View paste
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
elliot n.
View paste
When I die let my ashes float down the Green River
Let my soul roll on up to the Rochester dam
I'll be halfway to Heaven with Paradise waitin'
Just five miles away from wherever I am.
elliot n.
View paste
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away
Sep 6
10:45 PM
Adam P.
has entered the room
steve k.
View paste
Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us, just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us, you and I
steve k.
View paste

We look for love, no time for tears
Wasted water's all that is
And it don't make no flowers grow
Good things might come to those who wait
Not to those who wait too late
We got to go for all we know
steve k.
View paste
Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us, just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us, you and I
steve k.
View paste
I hear the crystal raindrops fall
On the window down the hall
And it becomes the morning dew
Darling, when the morning comes
And I see the morning sun
I want to be the one with you

steve k.
View paste
Just the two of us
We can make it if we try
Just the two of us, just the two of us
Just the two of us
Building castles in the sky
Just the two of us, you and I
steve k.
View paste
Very superstitious, writings on the wall,
Very superstitious, ladders bout to fall,
Thirteen month old baby, broke the lookin glass
Seven years of bad luck, the good things in your past.

When you believe in things that you dont understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition aint the way
steve k.
View paste
Very superstitious, wash your face and hands,
Rid me of the problem, do all that you can,
Keep me in a daydream, keep me goin strong,
You dont wanna save me, sad is my song.

When you believe in things that you dont understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition aint the way, yeh, yeh.
Sep 6
10:50 PM
elliot n.
View paste
I am a man of constant sorrow
I've seen trouble all my day.
I bid farewell to old Kentucky
The place where I was born and raised.
(The place where he was born and raised)

For six long years I've been in trouble
No pleasures here on earth I found
For in this world I'm bound to ramble
I have no friends to help me now. 
steve k.
View paste
I am a man of constant sorrow 
I've seen trouble all my day. 
I bid farewell to old Kentucky 
The place where I was born and raised. 
(The place where he was born and raised)
steve k.
View paste
For six long years I've been in trouble 
No pleasures here on earth I found 
For in this world I'm bound to ramble 
I have no friends to help me now. 

[chorus] He has no friends to help him now 

It's fare thee well my old lover 
I never expect to see you again 
For I'm bound to ride that northern railroad 
Perhaps I'll die upon this train. 

[chorus] Perhaps he'll die upon this train
steve k.
View paste
You can bury me in some deep valley 
For many years where I may lay 
Then you may learn to love another 
While I am sleeping in my grave. 
steve k.
View paste


Maybe your friends think I'm just a stranger 
My face you'll never see no more. 
But there is one promise that is given 
I'll meet you on God's golden shore. 
elliot n.
View paste
Maybe your friends think I'm just a stranger
My face you'll never see no more.
But there is one promise that is given
I'll meet you on God's golden shore.
Sep 6
10:55 PM
Tom F.
has left the room
elliot n.
View paste
  Lost all my money but a two dollar bill
   Two dollar bill boys, two dollar bill
   Lost all my money but a two dollar bill
   I'm on my long journey home

Cloudy in the West and it looks like rain
Looks like rain, boys, looks like rain
Cloudy in the West and it looks like rain
I'm on my long journey home
elliot n.
View paste
t's dark and a raining and I want to go home
Want to go home, boys, want to go home
Its dark and a raining and I want to go home
I'm on my long journey home
elliot n.
View paste
Homesick and lonesome and I'm feeling kind of blue
Feeling kind of blue, boys, feeling kind of blue
Homesick and lonesome and I'm feeling kind of blue
I'm on my long journey home
Sep 6
11:00 PM
elliot n.
View paste
There's black smoke a rising and it surely is a train
Surely is a train boys, surely is a train
There's black smoke a rising and it surely is a train
I'm on my long journey home
elliot n.
View paste
Oh, the people would come from far away
They'd dance all night till the break of day
When the caller hollered ""Do-se-do""
He knew Uncle Penn was ready to go.

CHORUS: Late in the evenin' about sundown
High on the hill and above the town
Uncle Penn played the fiddle, oh how it would ring
You can hear it talk, you can hear it sing.
elliot n.
View paste
He played an old piece he called ""Soldier's Joy""
And the one called ""The Boston Boy""
The greatest of all was ""Jenny Lynn""

To me that's where the fiddle begins.
elliot n.
View paste
I'll never forget that mournful day
When Uncle Penn was called away
They hung up his fiddle, hung up his bow
They knew it was time for him to go.
Sep 6
11:05 PM
elliot n.
View paste
I [g] wandered so aimless life filed with sin
I [c] wouldnt let my dear saviour [g] in
Then jesus came like a stranger in the night
Praise the lord [d7] I saw the [g] light.

Chorus
I saw the light I saw the light
[c] no more darkness no more [g] night
Now Im so happy no sorrow in sight
Praise the lord [d7] I saw the [g] light.
elliot n.
View paste
Just like a blind man I wandered along
Worries and fears I claimed for my own
Then like the blind man that God gave back his sight
Praise the lord I saw the light.
elliot n.
View paste
I was a fool to wander and astray
Straight is the gate and narrow the way
Now I have traded the wrong for the right
Praise the lord I saw the light.
elliot n.
View paste
I saw the light I saw the light
[c] no more darkness no more [g] night
Now Im so happy no sorrow in sight
Praise the lord [d7] I saw the [g] light.
Sep 6
11:10 PM
Sep 6
11:45 PM
Display
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