BigHook Chat — September 9

← | Today, September 10

Sep 9
10:10 AM
Judi C.
Happy (and auspicious) 9/9/9
Sep 9
11:25 AM
Jon L.
We're getting it together here.
Judi C.
From Harvard Biz Publishing, The Daily Stat:  	
SEPTEMBER 9, 2009
Sky-High Wi-Fi
76% of frequent fliers would switch airlines in order to have Wi-Fi access in the air,
according to a new survey by Wakefield Research and the Wi-Fi Alliance. 71% would prefer
Wi-Fi over a meal, and 55% would change their travel plans by a day to avoid being out of
touch during the flight. 94% say Wi-Fi is "the best thing airlines have done" in
the last three years.
Jon L.
Not me. I never use wifi when I'm sleeping.
Sep 9
11:35 AM
David I.
hello
Jon L.
Hola.
Sep 9
11:45 AM
Jon L.
There we are.
Sep 9
11:55 AM
Rick
stretch that screen
Sep 9
12:05 PM
Judi C.
Vint Cerf: "Power corrupts, Powerpoint corrupts absolutely."
Judi C.
For people in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen
Sep 9
12:50 PM
Display
I think we have it right now.
Sep 9
12:55 PM
Judi C.
Thank!
Jon L.
Wow, my screen's dirty.
David I.
ok lessee if this works
David I.
wow I wish could see my notes for intros . . .
David I.
just the physical stuff
Sep 9
1:20 PM
FrankP
Judi...are there? Anyway, hello!
Jon L.
I think Judi's inside David's Mac.
Sep 9
1:25 PM
ArtKleiner
My screen is dirty too.
Judi C.
Hi Frank!
Judi C.
I /am/ hiding inside David's Mac.
Judi C.
looking up at the wooden ceiling.
Sep 9
1:30 PM
Judi C.
Art, I cleanedr screen from the inside, but the outside... can't reach it.
FrankP
sounds vaguely druiduic al
FrankP
druidical
Judi C.
For people in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen
FrankP
check
ArtKleiner
My screen is clean from the inside out
ArtKleiner
And my speaker is off.
Jon L.
I cleaned my screen!
Sep 9
1:35 PM
dweinberger
tap tap, is this thing on?
dweinberger
yup
Judi C.
Hi David, Hi Doc. The cluetrain has arrived?
dweinberger
woo half a who!
Jon L.
Cluetrain 2: Bighook 2009
dweinberger
Yeah, we can take Bighook with half our authors tied behind our backs! Bring it on!
dweinberger
Notch: Good name for a folk band
Ben t.
For the record, the full name was Ben the Frog...
Judi C.
so noted (and listed properly in the right column)
Sep 9
1:40 PM
AGoldmanISP
ocean acidification
enoss
david w, I now have a mental image of with chris onr back!
Jon L.
ouch
wseltzer
is it possible globally to disable the "ping" sound?
enoss
yes. sound is in the top right
Judi C.
no, sorry. People in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen
Jon L.
Thanks, Judi.
Nurture G.
Got it Judi. Thanks. And huge waves amazing one.
enoss
I will only search for cisco routers on google henceforth
Jon L.
I'll subscribe to cable when I get home.
FrankP
smartmugs nite
FrankP
unite
FrankP
farging eee keyboard
Sep 9
1:45 PM
Jon L.
Lost access.
Nurture G.
David's terrific attention to detail - the 3 minute card even has correct pronoun (she)
Jon L.
Testing
dweinberger
Awaiting the results of JonL's test.
enoss
funny, mine says "she" too
Sep 9
1:50 PM
Jon L.
JonL's test worked. Just seeing a message saying "message wasn't sent." But msgs are appearing.
AGoldmanISP
e-mail dated Sept. 8
AGoldmanISP
if're looking for the invite, it came Sept. i8
AGoldmanISP
Sept. 8
Jon L.
I thought the AI detected that my messages were frivolous and rejected them.
Nurture G.
Keeps saying "Sorry this message wasn't sent. may have lostr internet connection. Try again."
dweinberger
I'm getting that msg too, for msgs that were in fact posted.
Jon L.
dweinberger: it's the cranky AI.
wseltzer
but no phishing
David P.
Phishing Polls would be useful, too
Steve K.
huzzah! good to be here.
Judi C.
Jean, may be trying to send at the same moment that everyone's machine is reloading. Just a guess
Jon L.
(Bows to Gardner)
Sep 9
1:55 PM
Judi C.
Tom F, invite was sent. If anyone needs special attention, plz email me: judic@manymedia.com
dweinberger
huzzah to gardner
Nurture G.
gratitude Gardner!
Judi C.
People in the chat room: Please click the little speaker to OFF. Speaker is in the upper right corner ofr browser screen
Nurture G.
Judi, I am a pretty lucky gal, but it happened repeatedly? And others had that too. Last message went through fine.
Judi C.
yes, JonL is experiencing same thing
Anders
Hope the lobster is still ON
Jon L.
I'm no longer seeing that problem here.
Doc
IsenSchwag!
Doc
Ding?
Rick
Doc
We should buy that and give it to david
Jon L.
(Bows to David for mugging all attendees.)
Judi C.
sssh, Rick, it's a secret
Rick
mere conduits
Doc
1 is king. No, 0 is king.
Rick
flomax!
dweinberger
isn't separating the drink from the device also known as "drinking"?
Sep 9
2:00 PM
Rick
deep beverage inspection
Judi C.
that beverage system is intelligence at the edge
dweinberger
IsenSpritzer
Jon L.
Local food ++++
Nurture G.
Second that - ++++ Local food
Steve K.
slow food site willow is pretty involved in this http://www.slowfoodusa.org/
Steve K.
good organization - not too many food nazis
Jon L.
dweinberger: The lamb ate vegetables. Okay for a vegetarian.
Doc
Did it die a natural death?
Judi C.
not yet?
Sep 9
2:05 PM
FrankP
check out slow money too http://www.slowmoneyalliance.org/
dweinberger
Doesn't that mean I am also allowed to eat vegetarians?
Nurture G.
Are going to their event in Santa Fe, Frank?
Doc
So we might want to get the swine flu early.
FrankP
nope... not santa fe for me this year
dweinberger
(BTW, the last time Isen predicted a disaster, it was Sept 8, 2001, and he said "War is coming. I don't know what it means, but I feel it." I am not making this up.)
wseltzer
shots for all, included in the swag?
Steve K.
best swine flu strategy may be to get it early before it gets resistant to drugs
Rick
should we all fist-bump our greetings the rest of the week?
Jorge
30,000 people die from flu in the USA every year aneyhow. H1N! is not more deadly that regular flu...
FrankP
gonna mutate anyuway
AGoldmanISP
at the first stupidnet f2c we had a talk on peak oil, and prices have skyrocketed since
FrankP
WTF?
Nurture G.
Yeah, that one.
dweinberger
Thanks for playing!
dweinberger
Gardner is doing the Vanna.
Sep 9
2:10 PM
AGoldmanISP
+ FP
Rick
don't quote steve kamman, and i quote
Jon L.
Unless can give him a better job.
Steve K.
very open to a better job if anyone is offering BTW.
Rick
but don't quote him on it.
Sep 9
2:15 PM
Steve S.
he's gives good back channel also
Jon L.
Berkman Center ++++
dweinberger
wendy's "did a lot of work with the berkman center" = one of the original forces and continuing spirits there
dweinberger
she also plays poker. That is a warning.
dweinberger
I'd like to be a register Insultant(tm)
AGoldmanISP
anyone who's here is by definition not retired
AGoldmanISP
groucho: "i was born at an early age"
Sep 9
2:20 PM
Steve K.
I would never belong to a club that would admit me as a member. my favorite groucho quote
Rick
yay Nathan; great job with OneWebDay.
dweinberger
OneWebDay.org Sept 22
dweinberger
Founded by ex-Big Hooker Susan Crawford
Nurture G.
Yeah! We will be celebrating in Chicago!
dweinberger
and sort of founded AT BH
Steve S.
ahhh, I remember pruning the wikipedia and handing out free gold in azeroth on the first One Web Day.
Jon L.
We're celebrating OWD in Austin, too.
Jon L.
I always wanted to go to the Azeroth One Web Day.
dweinberger
And his secret identity has a secret identity as a blues harmonica player.
Sep 9
2:25 PM
Steve S.
and that secret identity has another even secreter identidy, but have to offer him a car ride from boston to find out :)
AGoldmanISP
ditch the lobbyists, keep the copper
Ben t.
At least when I hand out free gold, it's hand to hand (or at least pencil to paper!)
Steve S.
ahh,'re giving them clues
dweinberger
no insults on this board!
AGoldmanISP
partnerships are a big part of the stimulus, because the cash cannot go to for-profits
enoss
is there an azeroth OWD?
Sep 9
2:30 PM
Steve S.
I ran one on my realm, but it was before WK
Steve S.
but, good idea maybe joi could open a a door ...
AGoldmanISP
backhaul and free peering
njames
"the cash cannot go to for-profits" - didn't ARRA section VI stipulate that private companies could apply, but NTIA would have to determine that the proposed project was "in the public interest"
AGoldmanISP
true -- the details on that is that we're waiting to see what does and what does not get funded in round one, and which exceptions are allowed
dweinberger
Wow. That's $7B per G !
njames
and, sure, anyone from Azeroth can organize OWD activities. I just don't know that many people there :)
Sep 9
2:35 PM
Steve S.
true, the gnomes are taking over
Steve K.
if a magnetron walked up and bit me...
Doc
I get rid of my computer for up to five minutes at a time.
Rick
i'd like to blog about not using my computer anymore.
Nurture G.
I will put down the computer as long as I can still have the phone, right?
AGoldmanISP
visualization of data is important -- the whole U.S. govt is putting data online, and most of it, at present, is not usable.
Sep 9
2:40 PM
Jon L.
Austin first, Azeroth later.
dweinberger
Ah. Just stopped using my computer for 37 seconds. Still a little shaky.
dweinberger
But I gotta say I feel cleansed
enoss
today's big USG identity announcement may open some of that data up
enoss
I am shaky hearing about david not using his computer for 37 seconds
dweinberger
(props to Andy. Amazing.)
AGoldmanISP
I think he was thinking about using it during that 37 seconds
Jon L.
My computer starting humming a song when I hit the Omega Institute page. Better get the earbuds.
Rick
"augmented reality." I call it Washington, DC.
Jon L.
Thinking about IP packets and dating.
AGoldmanISP
cellcos are not the best network
Nadia E.
Did Steve say dating sites or something else?
AGoldmanISP
yes lavalife was a dating site, a lot of mobile
Nadia E.
thnks
Jon L.
SWM with passionate packets...
Ben t.
A service that allows to date sites. How cool! I wanna date cnn.com !
Rick
Voice Glue + Dating Sites = Sticky Situations?
Nadia E.
Sticky sites
Sep 9
2:45 PM
dweinberger
Lavalife kept matching Steve up with himself. Hence the two phones.
Sep 9
2:45 PM
dweinberger
martin geddes, for those out of name sign range
Judi C.
Thanks DW, here's the full list: http://isen.com/bighook/2009/participants.html
Steve K.
martin Geddes - "I grew up as a geek" bu I got better?
dweinberger
"Seduced by BT": First book in new Harlequin Business Romance line
AGoldmanISP
geddes' now dormant blog has the great name telepocalypse
Ben t.
Although he occasionally posts about how stupid service providers can be in selling services...
Jon L.
Martin inspired F2C
Herman (.
two sided business model is the term to google for
David P.
coevolution quarterly ++
David P.
how many here subscribed?
Judi C.
Jon, so did!
Sep 9
2:50 PM
dweinberger
"companies that are confused about the web" is the expansion of the contraction "companies."
AGoldmanISP
dweinberger
"weblogsky": another awesomely-named blogs in the room
Jon L.
Some think it's "Weblog Sky." *8^)
Jon L.
Companies confused about the web = most companies, so there's a lot of work to do.
Jon L.
(I do wish I had been lead scientist somewhere, or possibly lead guitar.)
AGoldmanISP
further reading for after the conference?
enoss
speaking of social value, for those who haven't seen it check out this brilliant bit by dweinberger http://noss.org/copyright
Doc
"An infrastructure has to be non-rival for some range of demand."
FrankP
non-rivalrous infrastructure gives us free elevator rides!
Nadia E.
until people breathe or breed?
AGoldmanISP
enoss: that geist guy in Canada is pretty good on copyright too
Doc
Things that are congestable, but not congested, are partially non-rival. can maintain it as a non-rival resource as long as it doesn't become congested,."
Jon L.
I always pick the rival bridge.
FrankP
are elevator lobbies congestable?
AGoldmanISP
wwhat if it's a bridge to nowhere?
Sep 9
2:55 PM
wseltzer
is rivalry what distinguishes infrastructure from platform?
Jon L.
It isn't nonrival.
Nurture G.
Are we jumping into discussion now?
Ben t.
It's a nightmare!
Doc
FrankP
there's a queuing theory thing here
Rick
my girlfriend in college wanted to date someone else too; she called it being "partially nonrivalrous."
dweinberger
infrastructure as tech or infrastructure as part of the national infrastructure?
FrankP
better nonrivalrous than nonfrivolous
Doc
"It is an infrastructure at all times, if for some material range of demand it can be shared without rivalry. Doesn't mean it has to be sharable at all time, merely a lot of time."
wseltzer
*wonders if this discussion is becoming rivalrous*
AGoldmanISP
I think it just needs to be designed to be shared.
Nadia E.
Does the term "infrastructure" have any particualar use?
dweinberger
exactly
AGoldmanISP
nadia: I think that there's an ideal about managing shared goods so that they are not destroyed to the harm of all
dweinberger
i don't understand what hangs on that "infrastructure" discussion.
FrankP
@naduia - it does describe a class of investments
David P.
the ARRA wants to fund "infrastructure" - it's a 10^9 $ word
AGoldmanISP
infrastructure is one thing that we share
dweinberger
and we share it even when we share it so much that it's congested.
Nadia E.
"In`´fra
adv.	1.	Below; beneath; under; after; - often used as a prefix."
Doc
"Infrastructure" is a subject but not a field.It did not appear in any dictionaries until the 1970s, when it migrated over from military uses. Encyclopedia Brittanica, last I looked, had no entry for it.
AGoldmanISP
it is different from the atmosphere but the atmosphere is also destroyed by the misuse of it and the commons
David P.
ARRA = cash for things other than clunkers
Sep 9
3:00 PM
Steve K.
I worked in mexico mostly lobbying the mexican FCC during 1996-1997
FrankP
Doc - Ithink that's because it is the backend of a lot of compound nouns
Steve K.
intersting time. regulators were trying hard, but telmex was incredibly powerful
AGoldmanISP
Monterey is the Frontier / Northern New England of Mexico
Nadia E.
Does it imply a certain sequentiality, that things have to happen before others
AGoldmanISP
Jorge is the Nultys of Mexico?
David P.
wikipedia has a definition: Infrastructure can be defined as the basic physical and organizational structures needed for the operation of a society or enterprise, or the services and ...
Rick
our conversation sounds more like "inferred-structure," trying to sort out the conceptual inferences from putting stuff in the ground or air to support other stuff.
FrankP
it has to be built before it can be used
Herman (.
Non-rivalrous <-> rivalrous : different pricing signals needed to make it work. Great but is there an incentive to create scarcity?
Jon L.
FrankP
absolutely
Judi C.
I was judic on the well
dweinberger
Doc paid $15 for a sub top The Well and was annoyed they never sent him an issue. (I kid because I love.)
Nurture G.
Thank Jon.
Sep 9
3:05 PM
AGoldmanISP
Herman -- is there an incentive to overbuild so that there is no scarcity? Scarcity allows the monopoly to charge for the resource, such as the Martian government charged for air in Total Recall
Jon L.
Coevolution Quarterly ++++
dweinberger
Jon L.
Art is into Booz.
AGoldmanISP
content with a business model -- tougher than'd think. I think art's is a trend
Judi C.
is now 9/9/09 9:09 in Hawaii
Herman (.
AGoldmanISP: the lack of that incentive is what worries me as an ultimate consequence of the combination of the definition and classical economic theory
Judi C.
One problem with decision makers: they're running things, not living them.
enoss
I know a bunch of barber surgeons
wseltzer
call off the leeches
Doc
AGoldmanISP
thanks for getting up early Judi!
Jon L.
Overbuilding only overcomes scarcity of what can be built.
enoss
problem is can't get a medical degree in only 2 or 43 years
Sep 9
3:10 PM
David P.
Science (the profession - the people who profess it) is society's infrastructure about a certain kind of knowledge. The US science community is becoming far less of a profession, and more of a set of indentured sharecroppers.
FrankP
social media experts and the laying on of leeches... rich idea
enoss
I don't really know why it is even an issue as to whether a stupid network is economic
enoss
it is WAY more sustainable
Nurture G.
social media leeches and the laying on of experts?
AGoldmanISP
Bruce K and I would love to look into the ROI on lobbying
Doc
Art's quixiotics: ROI on lobbying; if an incumbent can get past its culture, will they find there is a more sustainable business case?
enoss
imagine the costs removed. regulatory, legal, sales, marketing, a whole layer of beauracracy
Jon L.
What we should do is write the Stupid Executive Test.
Nadia E.
wouldnt the costs pop up elsewhere?
AGoldmanISP
enoss: tough to tabulate both the total costs and also the total "benefits" in terms of the elimination of competition and change
Doc
Dr. Weinberger and I wrote http://worldofends.com in 2003 with exactly Art's second question in mind.
enoss
tough to tabulate. easy to know it would be positive.
enoss
imagine trying to PROVE any Internet innovation
AGoldmanISP
what is the cost of change?
Nadia E.
social costs
Nadia E.
maybe?
Judi C.
AG, the cost of change to an incumbent: if have some, they want it.
Jon L.
Yeah, costs in social capital.
enoss
the social benefits would of course be large
Herman (.
Ask Martin G. on his ideas what extra services could/should be added to a dumb pipe and basis services, how profitable it can be, would be suprised
Sep 9
3:15 PM
enoss
Herman (Citynet): it is one thing to hire martin. it is totally another to listen to him ;-)
enoss
when BT listens to him THEN I will be impressed!
Jon L.
"People are not stupid, it's just the briefings that are holding them back."
Judi C.
Yay Joe!
Herman (.
Anders: the PR around Citynet has been part of the (hidden) strategy to get to a particular situation where the incumbent (and the regulator) could jump over their shadow. We are almost there, can explain more in detail for people who are interested.
Jon L.
Sep 9
3:20 PM
Ben t.
Battery dying... Bye!
AGoldmanISP
Herman: part of the success had to do with a long term plan? Many independent networks and initiatives struggle to stay alive through the buildout, while under pressure, much of it illegal, from the ILEC.
Judi C.
Ben, there are plugs hiding around the walls. Hoper plug is handy
Jon L.
Plugs all over.
Nurture G.
Ben - there are plugs :)
Jon L.
Sep 9
3:25 PM
Jon L.
FrankP
Jon L.
Bandwidth is good.
Jon L.
Jump on BHn if can see it.
Jon L.
I.e. if have the N hardware.
AGoldmanISP
just google "broadband cowboy" for DH
Jon L.
Pervasive FAT pipes.
AGoldmanISP
unlicensed has a posse
Sep 9
3:30 PM
Doc
I'm getting 7-10Mb symmetrical on both BH and BHn.
Nadia E.
wish DH would hook up Reboot
Sep 9
4:05 PM
Judi C.
David illustrating "re-framing?"
Nadia E.
House tour after this session
Sep 9
4:10 PM
Ben t.
I'm on for the house tour!
ArtKleiner
Me too - either today or early evening tomorrow...
Herman (.
Ditto
Nadia E.
me three
FrankP
& four, here
AGoldmanISP
how many use 100 Mbps in Amsterdam and how many opt for 10 Mbps instead?
Herman (.
Majority 30/30 Mbps en 50/50 Mbps
Sep 9
4:15 PM
Rick
symmetry is key
Herman (.
People (still minority) start to understand the value of symmetrical = low latency
Herman (.
Speed of response is everything
Herman (.
Content is something to communicate about :-)
FrankP
infrastructure is just a noun looking for a modifier
Judi C.
Frank, I think infrastructure is the modifier at this point. Incumbents are the noun.
AGoldmanISP
open
Judi C.
(a noun that needs to be verb-ized)
Nadia E.
we had a long discussion about this term with a commission expert at Reboot
FrankP
telco infrastructuralizing
AGoldmanISP
stupid?
Jon L.
Communications/freedom - transparency? ("Transparency is the new killer app.")
Sep 9
4:20 PM
AGoldmanISP
iphone at&t = fake scarcity
Jon L.
David Reed: "I don't blame David Reed."
Judi C.
re: AT&T & fake scarcity: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?p=429 (good article by Mitch Ratcliffe - @godsdog on twitter)
enoss
buffer the iphone slayer
Rick
is the bottleneck in the CFO's office?
FrankP
++
Nadia E.
I wanna hear more about the At&T bottleneck thing
Jon L.
Truly the stupid network.
Rick
"Your world, sometimes delivered."
Jon L.
Another argument for transparency.
Judi C.
Nadia, suggest check Mitch's article
enoss
"we don't dare want our competitors to know our vendor who sells us stuff that doesn't work"
Nadia E.
@ Judi :got link?
Sep 9
4:25 PM
Jon L.
Nadia: link posted above.
FrankP
Nadia EL-Imam: see above
Nadia E.
thnks
enoss
I will never alcatel
Jon L.
The Mystery Vendor
Jon L.
Alcatel, Ericsson
Judi C.
Problems with the chat: judic@manymedia.com
Judi C.
problems with the network, talk with Dewayne (who's in the room with)
AGoldmanISP
Steve S.
Isn't this why David I started BH, to harness our collective brain power to help find solutions to ATT network problems :)
AGoldmanISP
+ steve
ArtKleiner
stupid solutions
Sep 9
4:30 PM
Jon L.
Steve, correct, if AT&T will listen.
AGoldmanISP
Andrew O also frequently cited in The Economist
Anders
In all fairness, the vendors are under a lot of pressure to design around walled gardens etc. if listen with their desingers and chief technologgists get a different story
FrankP
I hope andrew has a section on regulatory control of robber barons
Jon L.
Read Andrew's paper (from the readings) in transit. Really excellent.
Robin
Thanks Judi!
AGoldmanISP
Rick's job = making it tough for the phone company to be a monopoly
Herman (.
AGoldmanISP
the FCC doesn't need engineers therefore they don't believe that smart radios exist
Herman (.
that's one of the papers of Andrew
enoss
weinberger on reed on spectrum http://noss.org/spectrummyth
Sep 9
4:35 PM
Herman (.
can upload the digital versions or links?
Steve S.
the cover isn't colorful enough
Judi C.
Rick: request above to please upload links
Rick
will do
Rick
Sep 9
4:40 PM
Rick
Rick
Nadia E.
Rick: is it ok to share the link to the pdf on facebook?
Judi C.
Nadia, these links will not work outside of this room
Judi C.
If allowed,'ll need to download the doc then share from another site
Rick
(third paper is on broadband policy, influenced greatly by Brett Frischmann, Barbara Cherry, and Andrew Odlyzko)
Rick
sure nadia
Nadia E.
mmm thats what I had in mind
ArtKleiner
"Every single person in the US who wants fiber to the home can have it without government subsidy - economically - believe it or not" - TIm Nulty
Judi C.
so it must not be the fiber, but service to the fiber that's the problem?
Nadia E.
thnks
Sep 9
4:50 PM
Doc
Question for the Nultys... What will be selling to customers... raw bandwidth, "triple play," or something else?
dweinberger
sorry to miss so many introductions!! I had a good excuse, but I'm still sorry.
Judi C.
+ Doc: raw bandwidth isn't all that useful unless there is some access to the Internet
Doc
By raw bandwidth I mean Net connectivity.
Doc
The problem with the Net offered as a "service," is that too often it's crippled by the carriers.
AGoldmanISP
enoss also works with smaller companies than many here do
Jon L.
If this was Texas, bigcos would buy legislation to squash the community network.
Herman (.
@ Benoit: Alcatel changes coincide with Ben Verwaayen?
Sep 9
4:55 PM
Robin
it isr fault Dewayne. Be more demanding. Please.
Ben t.
Herman (Citynet): More or less. There was a need for a marketing message change with the change in management. I also think there was a realisation that they were cutting themselves from half the market by being the "incumbent" guys.
FrankP
Jon Lebkowsky: so this is an entry point to lobbying ROI analysis?
Judi C.
with Dewayne on the west coast, and the Nultys on the east, any chance it'll meet in the middle?
Steve S.
last month I noticed comcast internet felt fast. I ran speedtest and found they had upgraded me to 25 down and 8 up. Without telling me. And it is getting fast enough for many things that I do. two way "HD" skype video is crystal clear and fast for example
Jon L.
FrankP Good idea.
Steve S.
oh, ps without charging any more
AGoldmanISP
Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
Allows telco to double dip wholesale competitors...
03:05PM Wednesday Aug 12 2009
AGoldmanISP
Jon L.
Judi C: we have a couple like them in TX, too.
Judi C.
ooh, the new triple play?
Jon L.
All three coasts!
AGoldmanISP
L Nulty: VT regulators make it possible; muni illegal in 17 states
Judi C.
(sigh. not my island(s) yet.)
enoss
I am not at all surprised
Sep 9
5:00 PM
Herman (.
Will the performance of Docsis not force phone companies to invest in fiber?
enoss
what is not evil is both a good question and easy to answer
Doc
Fight the sin, not the sinners?
AGoldmanISP
Herman -- no because the copper covers more land area than the cable. So the phone company only invests in fiber in high class residential areas
Herman (.
Ah. In NL it is almost equal, cable is a little less
enoss
desperate is a good description
Jon L.
I thought telcos had a lot of dark fibre?
enoss
it just is experienced by the customer as evil
AGoldmanISP
AO: Google envy
Steve S.
the interstellar colony ship has de-evolved during the centuries in transit
Judi C.
I'm organizing a TEDx out here
dweinberger
Robin is also one of Time Mag's 100 Most Influential this year
enoss
thanks to robin we have metal mugs! :-)
Sep 9
5:05 PM
Judi C.
btw, if anyone has travel plans to HI in late October, please let me know?
Jon L.
Judi, Worldchanging was funded early on by Ed Burtynsky's TED grant.
Jon L.
JADP
enoss
Doc
DOCSIS in practice (at least with Comcast and Cox, the two I know a bit) is HFC: hybrid fiber coax. They bring fiber deep into the last mile and then leverage existing copper the rest of the way. The issue for them is debugging their legacy copper, plus bothering customers to replace old cable modems.
Jon L.
I'll come if I can speak at our Ted.
Jon L.
er, Ted.
Judi C.
wishing we had Zipcars out here...
Judi C.
JonL, are on.
Doc
AGoldmanISP
DSL vs. carrier pigeon in South Africa http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/DSL-Vs-…
njames
Someone was wondering where Sascha is. This just came through my inbox:
njames
AGoldmanISP
CALEA makes mesh networking illegal 00 not that the law has shut down Meraki yet
dweinberger
"OTI Director, Sascha Meinrath, Testifies at FCC Workshop on Broadband Consumer Context"
AGoldmanISP
Go Sascha M! ""Policy-making has continued under a self-imposed veil of ignorance," challenged Sascha Meinrath, Director of the New America Foundation's Open Technology Initiative at today's Federal Communications Commission workshop on Broadband Consumer Context. "
Jon L.
Good for Sascha! He's doing god's work.
dweinberger
OMG, what DOESN'T calea make illegal??
Scott B.
it is too simple to say that CALEA does that - it sets
Herman (.
I have seen myself small (municipality owned) HFC networks that have been evolving according to a strategic plan. The plan takes 6-8 years. The endresult is...a full Point-2-point fiber network, at a cost lower than building a new network. Topology and architecturally equal to our deplayment in Amsterdam. They have been using their cashflow wise.
Scott B.
a set of requirements that mesh makes it hard to meet but not impossible
Jon L.
"The government's job is to be creating platforms for participation." Want to take that home.
dweinberger
OMG, what DOESN'T calea make hard not meet a set of requirements?!
Doc
"when we build the smart grid and the smart cars with proprietary technology, we have screwed up." amen.
AGoldmanISP
how about fixed wireless on charging stations for electrical cars?
dweinberger
Go Robin!
Sep 9
5:10 PM
AGoldmanISP
see Northpoint -- lost the bid for their own business plan
Judi C.
Hawaii gov has announced plans to put a network up for charging cars. (we'll see.)
enoss
is that open source non-profit and the technology talked about on the net somewhere?
enoss
pass the hat!!
AGoldmanISP
I think it's about a critical person rather than a critical rule
Nurture G.
Robin - do know P2P foundation and Michel Bauwens?
Sep 9
5:15 PM
Doc
Collom Report, after Senator Collum. Main concern was the rise of corporate power.
Herman (.
Collom/Collum?
dweinberger
can't find a wikipedia article on collom/collum or his report.
dweinberger
clearly there was no such person or report.
Doc
"ICC is checkin' down the line. I'm a little overweight and my log book's way behind..." - Dave Dudley, "Six Days on the Road"
Robin
scott b: tell me offline, or paste in offline, CALEA and mesh piece. I am worried about that. But I want to ignore it until we have built a constituency that will argue for mesh
enoss
bill moyer yesterday: I don't want obama to be like franklin roosevelt, I want him to be like teddy roosevelt!
dweinberger
nothing in WP about cullum either. Wow.
Robin
Jean: Don't know P2P foundation. Make an introduciton?
Ben t.
what about on google?
Nurture G.
Will do. He just sent me an "All things Open" map last night.
Robin
Important to thank David Weinberger for that wired article he wrote about my work. It has been really important in getting me in doors, and in explaining my work easily to others
dweinberger
can we embrace as well as extend? It just makes me more comfortable.
Scott B.
Bumblebee
Sep 9
5:20 PM
dweinberger
jeez, thank, Robin. Total pleasure and an honor.
AGoldmanISP
the key word on mesh networking and CALEA is "hairpinning" -- have to enable the government to record anything on the network without a presence at the edge. therefore traffic has to go through the core. even that's just a brief summary
Robin
What if we start with data that they don't want to monitor? boring stuff. Not conversations
wseltzer
has calea extended beyond wireline-replacement?
enoss
AT&T turned down the .com registry
AGoldmanISP
CALEA was a big deal for WISPs http://www.wispa.org/calea/WCS/
Robin
A senior Cisco exec said at a very important meeting I organized at USDOT "I would never use a credit card on an open source mesh"
Robin
Then 7 comments later, Michael Bletsas replied, "the internet is an open source mesh"
enoss
this stuff?
enoss
please expand
Robin
I hear this stuff about guarantee all the time regarding "hard safety" data transmission for vehicles.
Steve S.
Robin, this is why end-to-end encryptions has to be part of the technology and part ofr open source initiative
Jon L.
TCP/IP
Jon L.
The Internet
Jon L.
etc.
wseltzer
This is why "critical infrastructure" scares me.
Robin
Steve S: currently infatuated with Van Jacobsen and content-centric networking
Sep 9
5:25 PM
wseltzer
if "critical infrastructure" means stuff that can be measured to work (and limited to the measurable, guaranteeable)
Judi C.
what can be measured can be billed for
Jon L.
Belief is just a paycheck away.
David P.
how do bill for security (pickr definition)
Herman (.
Isn't it the same belief system that created classical economics? Deterministic, reductionist, controllable, "risk-managed"? Like Taleb describes in Black swan?
Scott B.
acceptance not belief
Robin
I thought GM would go bankrupt. Car companies are just like telcos. They don't see the future
AGoldmanISP
commercial real estate mortgages
enoss
gm market share has gone down every year since '55 iirc
David P.
life insurance companies will go next
Jon L.
World's upside down. Implies opportunity as well as catastrophe.
Rick
New head of GM = Ed Whitacre (former AT&T CEO)
Nurture G.
the breakdowns and the breakthroughs....
Herman (.
The end of the mindset created by the baby-boom-generation?
ArtKleiner
Henry Ford II said, "Americans won't buy small cars" back in 1977. Then they made reality fit their belief as long as they could.
Jon L.
The Dilberts are all leaving, forming bootstrap microcompanies, moving into coworking spaces.
Doc
"What I worry about is a failed treasury option."
enoss
I thought rick was writing an onion headline!
Sep 9
5:30 PM
Judi C.
failed treasury auction: is this related to gold (on paper) vs gold (in metal form)?
Doc
"That's whan nobody buys our debt."
Robin
Eliot: Senior bureaucrats push back on the vision: we can't trust it. We need 99.99999 connectivity, zero latency, etc etc. (this for vehicle communications). Then I say do feel safe inr car withr cellphone? And how long does that take to connect? and are always in connectivity?
Nurture G.
the US is too big to fail?
ArtKleiner
China is trapped buying our dollars as long as they sell to us more than to anyone else, but that's changing.
Rick
“I don’t know anything about cars,” Whitacre, 67, said yesterday in an interview after his appointment. “A business is a business, and I think I can learn about cars. I’m not that old, and I think the business principles are the same.”
Doc
Steve: "that is so not going to happen... they are so trapped into buying our dollars"
enoss
does he have a drivers license?
ArtKleiner
He also said GM sold all its corporate jets.
Judi C.
if someone is having a problem connecting to the chat, please ask Dewayne, Doc or Jon L to send me an IM?
Jon L.
Whitacres going to insist on charging communities to carry cars on their roads.
David P.
we have an information economy, but no one invests in knowledge
ArtKleiner
Funny thing is, GM is very successful selling cars in China.
AGoldmanISP
innumeracy is a problem we can't count
Judi C.
++ David P
Robin
Rick: the idea that the person who built ATT is now going to guide GM -- so sadly funny. ATT also is a dying business model. So clearly Whiteacre won't lead GM to the new future
Jon L.
David P. - Because the value of knowledge is difficult to measure with metrics we normally employ.
Doc
judi what isr IM? can please re-send an invite to stevekamman@gmail.com my oldinvite has expired
ArtKleiner
There ARE some companies thinking in a longer time-scale. Toyota, P&G, some of the Chinese state-owned companies...
Robin
My goal is to make carbon expensive and data access cheap.
Robin
We need to move from a carbone economy to an information economy
Robin
walmart is very innovative.
AGoldmanISP
I have speakeasy at home and pay for my IP
David P.
privately held companies (not *private equity*) are managing for the long term now.
Sep 9
5:35 PM
ArtKleiner
Some privately held companies, not all. Some publicly held companies, too. All but a few companies are run by "barber-surgeons" who depend on luck rather than an understanding of their business. In their defense, nobody else understands their business either.
enoss
it is POSSIBLE (not easy) to be a public company and manage for the long term
Jon L.
Greed/legislation vs technology: technology always wins.
Steve K.
hahhahhahah! I am back! blood pressure down.
Doc
"in the battle between greed and legislation on the one hand and technology that people want to use on the other, the people will win."
AGoldmanISP
the nomadic aspect of VoIP killed by E911 regulation and further harmed by taxation
Jon L.
I think it's always "some not all." Wonder what's the mix?
wseltzer
plenty of media player tech killed off by copyright
David P.
the technology doesn't die when the companies fail...
Scott B.
e.g. DAT tape
Herman (.
The good thing about capitalism is that can be is incompetent as like; bankruptcy will ber reward. The problem can be that society gets hurt along the way, or that the incompetent are protected by law/regulation
Nurture G.
Did we get intros from the front row on the west side?
Rick
ultrawideband was strangled by the FCC.
wseltzer
the average person's access to it dies
Judi C.
HI Tel is in bankruptcy now.
Doc
Look at Internet radio since the DMCA. From CARP to CRB to SoundExchange doing awful deals with Pandora and CPB (which will backfire), whole industries haven't happened.
ArtKleiner
Agree with Herman.
dweinberger
Then there's the inverse: All the incredibly crappy products maintained by market strength of their producers. In fact, most products become crappy if they last long enough.
Rick
Independent ISPs were shown the door by the FCC in 2005.
ArtKleiner
But those who do build for the long term can create great dynasties, both family and corporate.
Scott B.
DLECs also
Doc
Try to listen to music podcasts. There aren't any for RIAA-copyrighted music. Too hard to "clear rights."
Scott B.
oops - CECs
Rick
Data CLECs are almost dead for similar regulatory reasons.
Scott B.
CLECs
Steve K.
Barbara - my metaphor for what scott was saying about how it "doesn't work" a railroad guy will define "working" as know exactly where a train and its load is at every moment of every mile of its trip to city a to city b with absolute certainty of the route and time/distance spans of every segment on that route. In that mindset, a trucking model (where put a guy behind the whell and basically tell him to get to city b however he thinks best) the trucking industry can be proven to "not work" in terms understood by a railroad guy.
Tom F.
Let'
Sep 9
5:40 PM
Doc
R. Pepper: do we need a new generation of people with long white robes throwing incense?
Sep 9
5:40 PM
Tom F.
let's not get confused between technology and implementation, or between technology and application.
Judi C.
or technology and design
Doc
How do we change belief systems by things that work by stealth that can have good inertia?
Tom F.
Of course, mesh using WiFi doesn't work -- it takes radios designed to mesh requirements -- . WiMax is of course headed for a similiar ditch.
Judi C.
doc: with the right (simplistic yet compelling) story.
ArtKleiner
To change belief systems takes several things at once:
Nurture G.
http://www.tarothermit.com/pope.htm - the guys with the robes and incense
dweinberger
"wifi is conversations"?
Herman (.
History shows remarcable agility of belief systems, if the old one has been eroded form within because it is only sustained by inertia.
Scott B.
wifi might work if the radios were better (far too lose)
ArtKleiner
1. Examples where the disbelieved thing happens and works.
Herman (.
(sorry, jetlag screws up my spelling)
ArtKleiner
2. A theory of why it works that holds up.
enoss
WHEN WHEN WHEN!
ArtKleiner
3. An action plan or path where can say, even to an incumbent, "Here's how can try it out safely."
dweinberger
Nice, ArtK
ArtKleiner
4. Enough other people who believe in it to trigger a Kuhn-style paradigm shift.
Steve K.
FYI my problem with campfire may have been because I did not tick the "I agree to the terms and conditions" box
Steve S.
Markus is doing the same thing to internet dating http://www.plentyoffish.com
Herman (.
ArtKleiner. Disbelieved = "common wisdom", the stuff the general public is taught
enoss
me to doc today: "let's do the craigslist of telecoms in that few people, highly profitable, wealth disintegration for incumbents, massive wealth creation for everyone else!"
Jon L.
I don't think Craig sees it as an accident.
dweinberger
So, what valuable lesson have learned from this, Steve K?
Doc
Brough: there is an enormous gap between what ordinary folks pay and what the big guys pay. This has a gap for craigs list move.
Steve K.
what I love is that people seem to really have a problem with craig newmark not trying to get bigger and add more crap when he is making azillions with only 30 emplyees
wseltzer
Steve K, oh, the EULA strikes again
ArtKleiner
5. Discipline to keep doing it again and again the new way until it becomes second nature. And that's the critical part.
Jon L.
(Saw Craig on the cover of Wired with an oy vey story on my way here.)
dweinberger
The Wired cover story on Craig was pretty nasty, imo. Also, somewhat incoherent.
Sep 9
5:45 PM
Jon L.
dweinberger Why I stopped reading Wired.
dweinberger
(I had a long back and forth with Gary Wolf, the author of the Craig Wired story, on my blog.)
Jon L.
Recently?
dweinberger
Jon L.
Found it, thanks.
dweinberger
another soul saved by advertising. Sort of.
Sep 9
5:50 PM
FrankP
Doc
dweinberger
Anders
the EC has a fundamental problem with big corp lobbying for them to control R&D funds
Anders
on the other hand what is "precompetitive" research?
dweinberger
Somewhere there's a municipal bond with Steve K's portrait on it, aging horribly.
Anders
I like a table on Telecom & policymaking, why the policy makers interact with the industry the way they do
Sep 9
5:55 PM
ArtKleiner
Disruptive change = "deep insecurity."
Doc
Asked what his then-new magazine, National Review, was for (this was in the Fifties), William F. Buckley repled, "To stand athwart history, yelling 'Stop!'"
ArtKleiner
Productivity miracle's bad side: productivity rate leapt to 6+% this year.
dweinberger
doc :)
Anders
soon there are more asian tourist spending in Europe than US
Herman (.
Art: the BLS admitted the stats are flawed..
ArtKleiner
Really? I just interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson about them...
ArtKleiner
Chinese top 500 companies, for the first time, had higher revenues one month (August) than the U.S. top 500 companies.
Steve K.
art/herman - numbers may be wrong but directionally correct. more important isa pretty clear anecdotal sense that a lot of those jobs wont come back.
Sep 9
6:00 PM
ArtKleiner
...jobs won't come back and production output won't go down either...
Steve K.
post this crisis, a lot of companies are going to figure out a lot of te wrinching changes and headcount cuts they have made are permanent.
ArtKleiner
...a lot of companies waste a lot of their money...
Herman (.
ArtKleiner
Herman, thanks. Key quote: In other words, if the furniture factory lays off all of the people who make legs, seats and backs, and buys those parts from China, but keeps the few people who do the final chair assembly, the jobs lost to China are called "productivity"."
ArtKleiner
But the amount of outsourcing, I gather, actually went down after the crisis.
Herman (.
it is in the process, but not yet done
Judi C.
FCC: 8, thrivability: 10
Sep 9
6:05 PM
Judi C.
NetNeutrality: 20
Judi C.
Telcos: 22
ArtKleiner
The trends stay the same, even if the numbers are flawed: Productivity up, outsourcing down a bit
Steve K.
on China and the dollar.  My amateur analysis.  

1).  Chinese are exporting goods to the US, importing dollars back into China, and then
piling those dollars up rather than using them to buy US goods (thus preventing their
currency from rising).  Result is a growing stock of dollars that can basically be seen as
a big bucket pent-up currency adjustment.

2).  Put another way, there is a growing but unrecognized loss of value in their dollar
holdings sort've like an unrecognized loan loss at a bank.  That loss will either flow
through directly via exchange rates or indirectly via inflation (which will also feed
through to exchange rates eventually).

3).  Can't keep this up indefinitely, but pain of un-doing it gets larger and larger as
that stock of dollars increases so paradoxically their incentive to avoid that pain grows.

4).  The best outcome for the Chinese is moderate US inflation, which would depreciate the
real-money value of that stock of dollars in a fairly painless and non-transparent way. 
Much better than a sharp currency movement.  Happily, this is probably also the best
outcome for the US.
 

CONCLUSION:  the Chinese HAVE to keep buying US debt to keep the RMB down and support
their export economy.  Longer-term, the best outcome for the Chinese is to shift toward
domestic consumptions and gradually appreciate the RMB through the indirect mechanism of
moderate US inflation.  At the end of that, the stock of dollars they have built up are
worth a lot less in real terms than they paid for them but hopefully the same in nominal
terms and the net loss to the country isn't noticeable in the midst of a big Chinese
consumer boom.  Meanwhile the US economy shifts (on the margin) away from consumption and
toward export as a result of dollar depreciation in real terms and a resulting shift in
terms of trade.  Meanwhile, US consumer purchasing power declines on a relative basis via
inflation/currency adjustment.  this is a bummer but it is a lot better than wage and
price deflation to achieve the same end.

Judi C.
device/content/carriers tussle: 15
Judi C.
infrastructure: 7
Judi C.
Policy & industry/users: 5
Judi C.
giving users louder voices: 12
ArtKleiner
What effect does a step-change in Chinese exports to the rest of the world have on this system?
ArtKleiner
Meanwhile it depends on the rest of the world building a middle class, and the Earth can't support that much.
Steve S.
I'm going to do the commercial tussle in mobile wireless access tomorrow at lunch for anyone that's interested
Steve S.
And yes, Tom F, let's add app writers (and bloggers, etc.) into the tussle and expand the tussle group
Steve K.
Steve K.
uploaded my comments.
Sep 9
6:10 PM
Steve K.
art. if the chinese take the $$ they get from us from those exports and just warehouse it instead of recycling it as a purchase of US$ denominated goods, they are just creating a larger store of future re-valuaiton.
Judi C.
Steve, Art, the Chinese just announced they'd not be selling precious metals to other countries. (How) will this affect a future re-valuation?
Sep 9
7:55 PM
Jane C.
0
Sep 9
8:00 PM
wseltzer
Is anyone up for a run early tomorrow morning?
Doc
Elvis is back in the building.
Sep 9
8:05 PM
AGoldmanISP
hi, doc elvis
dweinberger
Sure, Wendy, I'm up for a run. How many times do plan on lapping me?
dweinberger
Alternatively, I may just stay in my room and hit my knees with a hammer.
Nadia E.
wseltzer..yes for run, what time and for how long? :)
wseltzer
Nadia: How does 5 miles sound?
Nadia E.
googling mile to km conversion
wseltzer
(to be timed by all our array of gadgets, of course)
Rick
5 miles is an awful lot of hammer hits for Weinberger's poor knees.
enoss
km = .6 miles
dweinberger
5 miles sounds great. How does me being half my my age and two thirds my weight sound?
enoss
ok the band needs a name. suggestions?
Sep 9
8:10 PM
dweinberger
band name: Vasectomy
Nadia E.
cool. ok 5 miles then
dweinberger
band name: Notch. (euphemism for Vasectomy)
Nadia E.
what time
Rick
Failed Notch
enoss
is "what time" a band name suggestion?
Nadia E.
How about NIMBY?
AGoldmanISP
judi's right, this is big news: http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Gold-i…
Nadia E.
hahaha
dweinberger
Band name: Crotch Notch. But maybe for a rock-er band
Rick
Crotch Notch Botch
AGoldmanISP
umababaruma is my favorite word in afro-brazilian music
dweinberger
rick lol
FrankP
niche notch?
ArtKleiner
The Notches
FrankP
nachos?
dweinberger
there go. AK's got the winner.
enoss
where does the whole notch theme come from?
AGoldmanISP
noches con notches
Nadia E.
notches con nachos
enoss
oops. read up the thread and saw the notch reference
dweinberger
from isen referring to them as top notch after the first set
ArtKleiner
Vasectomy is more of a side notch
Jon L.
Top nachos?
Steve K.
Woods Hook?
AGoldmanISP
k!
Jon L.
Ah... band name: Top Nachos.
Rick
no mention of Holes, please
enoss
snippy and the notches
Steve K.
this accordian/harmonica device is awesome. makes me want to smoke gauloises and feel wistful.
Sep 9
8:15 PM
dweinberger
The Wistful Gauoloises
enoss
I can picture in a beret steve
Rick
so can his mom
Jon L.
The Smoky Clovers
Herman (.
The Olahlah's?
FrankP
la vie en steve
dweinberger
The Bourgeois Gauloisises: The most Misspelled Band in the World
Steve K.
I own a beret - think I actually packed it. will ask willow to bring it down. bought in San Sebastien actually in spanish basque country
Jane C.
Avec le bicyclette?
enoss
misspellings means domain name sales!!
Scott B.
bye bye Brasil
Scott B.
Nadia E.
Jon L.
Steve, can we auctionr beret to fund next year's Bighook?
Steve K.
you can take my beret when pry it from my cold dead hands....
dweinberger
CNN jabbering heads says Obama's talk will run about 50 mins. Hasn't started yet.
enoss
we call them nattering ninnies in canada
Steve K.
actually pretty handy in winter. when I do end up looking my age I will at least be able to wear fun hats in public.
Jon L.
Will Obama wear a beret?
dweinberger
no, but O will be smoking a Gauloises ... probably the biggest political sin possible in America
Steve K.
imagine obamas ears stickout out from under a beret? glenn beck would post that every night
FrankP
new frame for green beret
Jon L.
Michelle tear him a new Gauloise.
Nadia E.
really like the instrument shes playing, anyone catch what its called?
dweinberger
a blow pianer?
FrankP
melodion??
Sep 9
8:20 PM
dweinberger
that was lovely.
Ben t.
melodeon
Robin
I love Brazilian music
Ben t.
nope, melodica actually. sorry for the confusion.
Robin
You become cool just listening to it
Robin
no need for a beret or a Gauloise
Jane C.
Obama is being shown live on BBC.co.uk now
Ben t.
enoss
I thought that was the window behind me
Ben t.
Harmonica with a keyboard.
Nadia E.
very cool shaky thingy
enoss
now play a maraca and are automatically cool
Jon L.
Interesting to have so much great music in a country so small.
David P.
Brazil is not small... even by Texas standards
Ben t.
Yeah. Brazil, small?
Steve K.
200 million people.  0-14 years: 26.7% (male 27,092,880/female 26,062,244)

15-64 years: 66.8% (male 65,804,108/female 67,047,725)

65 years and over: 6.4% (male 5,374,230/female 7,358,082) (2009 est.)
Ben t.
Also, some small countries have very specific musical folklores, like madagascar...
Steve K.
200 million people
David P.
2/3 usa... pretty major
Jon L.
Like I said, interesting to have so much great music in a country so large. *8^)
Herman (.
Anders told us Madagscar is twice the size of Sweden...and 3 x the people
Sep 9
8:25 PM
Nadia E.
Yeah but swedens pretty big
David P.
Mental models of "other" cultures - very, very distorted.
Rick
I heard Madagascar has, like, 18 billon people.
Ben t.
what's that standard?
Nadia E.
Rick: googleit
Jon L.
Hey, mental models of OUR culture are pretty distorted.
dweinberger
Burt Bacharach has like 200M people.'re cool just listening to him.
David P.
If the entire earth could "stand on zanzibar"...
Rick
boo hoo, BH is officially No Longer Cool.
Jane C.
Madagascar — Population: 20,042,552
Jon L.
Madagascar should grow up, like Brazil.
dweinberger
should have a foot-pedal operated one so the musician can see the keys.
dweinberger
can we do a prototype here by Fri morning?
AGoldmanISP
Madagascar will always be cool as long as it has lemurs
njames
can we add the melodica to the raffle prizes?
FrankP
10,000,000 hungarians in magyar
wseltzer
"you can fit it inr laptop case"
Nadia E.
yes! i want a melodica :)
dweinberger
cockroaches in the flour bag: Worst. Band name. Ever.
Steve K.
how did we get to hungarians?
Rick
we have a band name!
Nadia E.
magyarascar
Steve S.
Marilyn has a melodica!
Sep 9
8:30 PM
FrankP
zackly
AGoldmanISP
that is syncopa tion
dweinberger
faster! faster!
Jon L.
The Hungarians fled Brazil, because it was so crowded.
Nadia E.
it sound ver cool this melodica thing
FrankP
and the food was scarce
dweinberger
inhale! inhale!
AGoldmanISP
photographers photographing photographers
enoss
"Marilyn has a melodica!" GREAT band name
FrankP
meta meta
dweinberger
it's a heavy meta band
Steve K.
now I want to play soccer, eat red meat and tango all night long!
Nadia E.
meta melodica
Rick
Turned it up a notch!
enoss
churasco!
enoss
play david!!
Nadia E.
Anyone who knws enough tangoto teach a class tonight?
Jon L.
I'm going to Brazil to meet my many thousands of new friends.
Steve K.
Jon L.
But no multitasking, right?
Steve K.
8:21 p.m. -- A little health care lesson: Theodore Roosevelt backed national health care. Rep. John Dingell, Sr., whose son remains in Congress, first introduced a health care bill in 1943. The U.S. is the only advanced country with its kinds of problems in the health care system. "I am not the first President to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last," Obama says.
Sep 9
8:35 PM
Steve K.
8:30 p.m. -- Obama decries the "scare tactics" surrounding his plan and delivers a money line: "The time for bickering is over. The time for games has passed. Now is the season for action. Now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together, and show the American people that we can still do what we were sent here to do."
AGoldmanISP
anchor institutions are defined by the Act
Jon L.
32 mil plus 8 mil
enoss
$160/person for fiber. where do I sign up!
Jon L.
Wonder what the chances are of getting the grants?
Robin
reading obama speech. it appears no public option. Instead "health insurance exchange"
AGoldmanISP
jon that is, as they say, the money question
Sep 9
8:40 PM
Steve K.
Thursday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 63. Breezy, with a 
east wind between 22 and 25 mph. 

Thursday Night: A chance of showers, mainly after midnight. Mostly cloudy, with a low
around 58. Breezy, with a east wind between 16 and 21 mph. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible.

Friday: Showers likely. Cloudy, with a high near 68. East wind between 15 and 18 mph.
Chance of precipitation is 70%. New rainfall amounts between a tenth and quarter of an
inch possible.

Friday Night: Showers likely, mainly before 1am. Cloudy, with a low around 62. East wind
between 8 and 10 mph, with gusts as high as 21 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New
rainfall amounts between a tenth and quarter of an inch possible.

Saturday: A chance of showers. Cloudy, with a high near 66. Chance of precipitation is
40%. New rainfall amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible
enoss
and they grabbed opencape.org! nic
enoss
nice
enoss
it wasn't evil, just not nice
enoss
(that last comment was a verizon reference btw)
dweinberger
Obama: Public open would be one of the options in the insurance exchange. It'd only be open to those who do not have insurance.
AGoldmanISP
enoss -- it's not evil to not build redundant 911?
enoss
nope. just not nice
Sep 9
8:45 PM
Robin
The Obama finesse "But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange."
AGoldmanISP
middle mile -- thus no homes connected, so not $160/person for fiber -- but it will be an open network
enoss
I would run my own last mile, by hand, if there was a middle mile available to me
Herman (.
no rights of way limtation?
Jon L.
"I will not back down. If Americans cannot find affordable coverage, we will provide with a choice."
Jon L.
Rural is definitely tough.
Doc
A corollary to the town meeting issue: http://despair.com/meetings.html
Herman (.
Are cooperations (like in rural areas used for energy) for the last mile an option?
Steve K.
I live a few blocks from the largest concentration of fiber in the boston area (downtown CO) and can ONLY get DSL (no fios, no cable)
Steve K.
8:45 p.m. -- Here comes discussion of the "public option." Obama says no one would be forced to take a publicly funded insurance option, and it must be "self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects." It is designed to provide competition for private insurers, and is "only one part of my plan." Challenges critics to promote alternatives that would keep insurance companies honest and lower costs, but "I will not back down on the basic principle that if Americans can’t find affordable coverage, we will provide with a choice."
Sep 9
8:50 PM
Jon L.
Good thinkng re the 20% limit.
AGoldmanISP
i agree with the guy sitting to my left
enoss
when listen to this, isn't it amazing to think that it is ILLEGAL in 17 states
Steve K.
eeek. "we get $ as a % of gross revenues to use for the benefit of the cape' creates a huge incentive for later public officals to maximize revenues (ie. higher rates) to expand this revenue source for their own ends...
Steve K.
thatscares me
Jon L.
This seems very well thought out. couldn't do it in Texas, sadly.
AGoldmanISP
i would not recommend free -- people expect too much of a free service
Sep 9
8:55 PM
Rick
it's more amazing that the incumbents couldn't manage to stop this kind of thing in 33 other states.
Jon L.
Actually I think can do it in TX, if it's free.
enoss
@steve k: I think it has to be done that way. it beats the alternatives.
Jon L.
Austin operates a mesh network but it's low power.
Jon L.
Didn't want it to appear competitive with Time Warner and AT&T.
AGoldmanISP
ARRA forces to have the anchor institutions on board
Steve K.
demotivators are awesome http://despair.com/ambition.html
Steve K.
Sep 9
9:00 PM
Doc
Possible topic or subtopic: unscrewing state law that prevents projects like this.
AGoldmanISP
steve, here's the SNL version: http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76aphoneco…
Doc
OpenCape is being generative for new business, then.
Doc
njames
Doc & enoss: in case haven't seen it, my old org, the media and democracy coalition, is taking on the laws preventing municipal service provision in their new report, A Public Interest Internet Agenda, which can get from their home page: http://media-democracy.net/
Jon L.
Doc, we had some activist force in opposition to those bills at one time. In Texas, we managed to prevent worse law, complete prohibition, from being passed. There's still a law that would prevent a municipality from providing and charging for a fiber network, but municipal wireless networks are possible.
Sep 9
9:05 PM
Jon L.
I think it would be worthwhile to have a national campaign similar to our TX "Save Muni Wireless" effort.
Jon L.
Or we could get Adina Levin to run for president. *8^)
Jon L.
(Adina did much of the work of coordinating the campaign that defeated the anti-muni TX legislation)
Jon L.
I may be wrong, but don't think there was ever a well-coordinated national effort.
Steve K.
8:57 p.m. -- Obama pledges to work with Republicans -- but also issues them a warning: "I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill this plan than improve it ... If misrepresent what’s in the plan, we will call out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now."
Sep 9
9:10 PM
Ben t.
Doc
I would like to have somebody do a tutorial on pricing of middle mile, backhaul, and the rest of this stuff. What makes $20Mb a good or bad price? What are the first costs of this stuff, and from what do they derive? This has never been clear to me, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Ben t.
enoss
the problem with that doc is that this is a HIGH fixed cost, teenie marginal cost business making any sort of "unit" pricing simply a function of the assumptions make around time and units
FrankP
would that high fixed cst be for, ummm.... IMFRASTRUCTURE?
Jon L.
Wondering how much pricing is determined by context?
Ben t.
A non-vertically challenged version will be available in a few moments. Please excuse me for the inconvenience of having to tiltr head...
Sep 9
9:15 PM
FrankP
OOR EVEN INFRASTRUCTURE
dweinberger
but Doc's right: Lots of us would benefit from a breakdown of the costs (fixed and otherwise). Posted somewhere? Infomagraphics?
Doc
Yes, but fixed costs seem to vary widely, especially long after the sunk ones are amortized. What are the fixed costs on Stockholm at this point?
Herman (.
Not only high cost, but sunk cash. Cash is real, profit is an opinion.
Steve K.
eliot - agreed with the corollary that it makes it really easy to overcharge on a per unit basis without it being at all clear because the cost-per unit calculations are so arbitrary and opaque.
dweinberger
Frank, sorry but the correct spelling is "inframastructure."
Ben t.
At the very least understanding what the intangible costs are (the transit, the aggregation point, etc.) would be nice.
enoss
the $20/mb that I mentioned is very different than a home price. it is based upon usage at the 95th percentile which would be quite low in a home context.
Jon L.
Will competitive entities reveal their internal pricing assumptions.
Jon L.
?
Ben t.
By "intangible" I mean the stuff that's not dependant on where dig.
Steve K.
jon lk. asume that they understand them
dweinberger
now onto the informal formal part
dweinberger
followed by the formal informal formal formal part
enoss
I am underdressed
Steve K.
first rule of telcos is NEVERY make a real effort to understnad and documentr own costs because the regulator might get ahold of it. so the best strategy is ignorance,
dweinberger
only mentally, my friend, only mentally.
Jon L.
Steve: not necessarily assuming that.
Ben t.
Jon L.
Opacity might be intended to conceal that lack of understanding though.
Jon L.
If that's the case.
Ben t.
Sep 9
9:20 PM
Judi C.
all of these guys file forms with the gov. We know how much they're spending. Can't we extrapolate to a per-unit basis?
Sep 9
9:40 PM
Judi C.
Thanks David for allowing me a virtual presence. If anyone is traveling to Hawaii this Oct, please let me know (TEDx on the coming change!). Also doing a television series on sustainability in Hawaii withng adults interviewing experts...
Jon L.
Judi, email me about Tedx.
Sep 9
9:45 PM
Doc
Judi, this was great. As always. We need to talk later about The Book. I have an idea
Sep 9
9:50 PM
Judi C.
JonL, check yr email
Sep 9
9:55 PM
Jon L.
Got it, thanks!
Judi C.
Boxing, as in BOXing?
dweinberger
boxee
wseltzer
Boxee
Sep 9
10:00 PM
Jon L.
The Boxee Rebellion
Judi C.
AGoldmanISP
nfl?
David I.
nfi???
David I.
no f&*( interface?
dweinberger
Dewayne's a completionist for ALL OF TV.
Sep 9
10:05 PM
dweinberger
enoss gets bad tv but free health care. Not sure how to weight those...
Judi C.
I kinda wonder where he found the extra hours in the day. That's the secret I want to crack...
Herman (.
judi can repeatr email for a question?
Judi C.
AGoldmanISP
4:06pm Wednesday (HST) - Time in Hawaii, United States of America
Sep 9
10:10 PM
Judi C.
yes, sunset not for about 2+ hours
AGoldmanISP
cogent bought psinet to get into the club (of six?)
Judi C.
Sep 9
10:15 PM
AGoldmanISP
judi,'re in _that_ box
Judi C.
Judi C.
out my front door a while ago
AGoldmanISP
holland is cheapest now
Sep 9
10:20 PM
Ben t.
Now that's just plain mean! (Although the view is not bad from here!)
Judi C.
you will get the beautiful morning view way before I do.
Robin
Judi: can't make us jealous because we are here at Big Hook where it is really beautiful all the time.
Doc
Thanks, Judi. It's interesting to me how, optically, the light inside a rainbow is brighter, more concentrated.
Judi C.
Robin, indeed.
Jon L.
Financial markets are as hyperrational as human belief systems.
Jon L.
(my compact restatement)
David P.
Fraud is essential to innovation
Doc
From a great book calledr New House, "Your builder is not Bob Vila.r builder is a crew of drunks, ex-felons and misfits who show up on alternate Thursdays."
Sep 9
10:25 PM
Jon L.
Reality... collective delusion. Can see the connection.
Doc
"How do we function in a society in which we operate as if reality doesn't exist?"
Judi C.
denial as a powerful social tool
Jon L.
Pattern recognition would be a better case than pattern assumption.
AGoldmanISP
that's why iraq and afghanistan -- no cell towers?
Judi C.
the problem of not looking before seeing (pattern assumption)
AGoldmanISP
managers of fund firms already do exactly what steve K says, which I guess is where this insight comes from.
David P.
Those of us who exhibit Asperger's Syndrome can't deny reality.
AGoldmanISP
a computer at the firm initiates 80 percent of trades, and an international network of traders do the rest
AGoldmanISP
aspergers = deny people? I'm not fully versed on this
Sep 9
10:30 PM
Jon L.
I don't think this is a bad thing.
enoss
once we realize that none of us are good, we will all be just fine!
Jon L.
Having transparency and working with what's real is probably a good thing.
David P.
Asperger's syndrome is largely a hypersensitivity to fact.
AGoldmanISP
enoss -- augustinian
enoss
good, should have been "good"
Nurture G.
indeed Elliot
Jon L.
Resistance is futile.
Nurture G.
cultural norms set expectations on what to see
Judi C.
but aren't most of us more "gooder" than average? what norms? which culture?
Jon L.
Sep 9
10:35 PM
Nurture G.
"good" is a subjective judgment made from one perspective upon some other with far too little information colored by personal experiences
Jon L.
How do define "good"?
Jon L.
What Nurture G. said.
Steve K.
wireline traffic growth is slowing. from 100% a year to 40%-50%. no crisis. should be maintainable with current levels of spending. wireless data traffic is talked about as over 100% a year. wireless data volumes are currently about the same as voice.
Steve K.
I use my wireless datacard in hotel rooms these days - mostly because it is easier to set up vs having to go trhough the hotel web system (not cost, comany pays ofr either, just time)
Nurture G.
I would say the singularity is going to save us from our incredible growth, but I fear someone might take me seriously.
Steve K.
the thing that will break is the telco business model :-)
Judi C.
Steve, data xfer (generally) is estimated to be in the exabytes per month in 7-8 years.
Sep 9
10:40 PM
Steve K.
backhaul is the connection from the tower back into the core
Steve K.
big difference between wireless and wireline is there are more competitors in wireless (in at least some countries)
Jon L.
Sustainability + social justice + consciousness
Steve K.
so the carrier's abilty to hold back demand is much more limited
Jon L.
When things are flourishing.
Robin
Favorite quote I heard from someone: Plantrself where will thrive.
Robin
And conversely, uprootrself from situations where are withering.
Sep 9
10:45 PM
Judi C.
Nice interview, @JonL with @NurtureGirl http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/010455.html
Sep 9
10:50 PM
Judi C.
agreeing. Cultural bias: thrivability assumes that basic needs are met.
Jon L.
To what extent would definitions of 'thrivability' vary?
Judi C.
JonL, there are three elements of variability in the definition
Jon L.
I was think more of variability based on context.
Jon L.
Lots more to say about this.
Judi C.
that's a fourth element of variability: context
Jon L.
What were the other three?
Judi C.
sustainability + social justice + consciousness. + context.
Steve K.
not getting what connects the end of thrivability to the means of achieving it.
Sep 9
10:55 PM
Steve K.
telcos are still housed in the "utility" group in most investment houses.
Judi C.
Their classification doesn't necessarily map to their corporate mindset
Judi C.
This is not the first time for this discussion at BH
Sep 9
11:00 PM
Jon L.
Steve K.: in conversations about goals of sustainability, I think the thought is to replace sustainability with thrivability - that the goal should be, not merely to sustain life at some level, but to set the bar much higher.
AGoldmanISP
Jon L.
It's a broad concept, just as sustainability is very broad.
Steve K.
Not sure I agree with time here. all these companies were privatized right around the time they were really starting toi generate huge cash flows off their already built networks. maybe less true in the US but most countries governemtns realized that selling off these assets would generate huge cash and or returns for cronies or both.
Sep 9
11:05 PM
Steve K.
the latin american telco privatizations werw moslty government cash raising exercises and/or a giveaway.
Judi C.
Links above re: CLEC in Minn
Herman (.
Agree with Steve: the story is that KPN should have been gone private without the coppernetwork (staying in private hands) but the banks and the mgt turned that over to a sale for 1 Euro...
Nurture G.
Thanks Jon. Yes, I would say it is broader....and more likely to be something we can cooperate across diverse interests to strive toward
Herman (.
correction: staying in public hands
Herman (.
sale for 1 euor to KPN
Nurture G.
Thanks Paula!!!!
Sep 9
11:10 PM
Nurture G.
Thank Judi
Nurture G.
Much gratitude for andr contributions here.
Judi C.
thank Jean for reframing our global needs
David I.
David?
Judi C.
lost yourself, did you?
Sep 9
11:20 PM
David I.
It's actually Greg Elin signed in as David. Hi all!
Sep 9
11:25 PM
Judi C.
Hi Greg!
Judi C.
Have talked with David since this morning? We were trying to figure out how maximized the chat screen to get rid of the "send message" window
Judi C.
Clearwire on Hawaii Public Radio now talking about rolling out 4G WiMax very soon. Everyone will need new hardware.
Sep 9
11:30 PM
Judi C.
Will be available in USB!
Sep 9
11:40 PM
David I.
Judi?
Judi C.
yes
David I.
(Greg): I sent David and Dewayne instructions via email.
Judi C.
awesome
Judi C.
thanks
Judi C.
you are missed
David I.
(Greg) Basically, open Campfire in Firefox. Then use key combination "Command +" to make font larger and "Command -" to make smaller.
David I.
As page gets larger in browser window, vertical and horizontal scroll bar appear. By combination of resizing fonts with with "Command +/-" and using scroll bars, can get just large font of a few bottom lines of text to dominate screen.
David I.
I miss being there.
David I.
(Greg) Night!
Sep 9
11:45 PM
David I.
(Still Greg)
Judi C.
sleep well. Thanks

← | September 10

 

BigHook Chat

People in this transcript

  • AGoldmanISP
  • Anders
  • Andrew Maffei
  • ArtKleiner
  • Ben the Frog
  • Brough
  • David I.
  • David Isenberg
  • David P. Reed
  • Display
  • Doc
  • dweinberger
  • enoss
  • Fiddle Weed
  • FrankP
  • Herman (Citynet)
  • Jane C
  • Jon Lebkowsky
  • Jorge
  • Judi Clark
  • Nadia EL-Imam
  • njames
  • Nurture Girl
  • Retired Person
  • Rick
  • Robin
  • Robin
  • Sascha Meinrath
  • Scott Bradner
  • Steve Kamman
  • Steve Kamman
  • Steve Smith
  • Tom Freeburg
  • wseltzer