BigHook Chat – Thursday, September 4, 2008

Wednesday, September 3, 2008 | Friday, September 5, 2008

Sep 4
9:05 AM
Jon Z.
Link to his book?
David I.
Pano has put his latest book online for us as a freebook. "I-B-M Brain Software" at http://www.lulu.com/content/3849030
Sep 4
9:10 AM
Jon Z.
Thanks!
elliot n.
there are very scammy moneyraising efforts going on with carbon trading
elliot n.
no surprise
Andy R.
Couple relevant items:
Sep 4
9:15 AM
elliot n.
David I.
ISO-what?
David I.
thx Elliot
Robin C.
see my favorite and hysterical website http://www.cheatneutral.com to see what I think about carbon offsets
David I.
from ISO website: ISO 14065:2007
Greenhouse gases -- Requirements for greenhouse gas validation and 
verification bodies for use in accreditation or other forms of recognition
Andy R.
Oops. Couple relevant items are: Another legislative approach is "cap and dividend," details here: http://tinyurl.com/DotBarnes Also, wrote a story here on carbon offsets, focusing on the MANY issues in this emerging market. The sidebar at the link has list of resources for shopping around. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/weekinre…
Sep 4
9:20 AM
Robin C.
One of benefits of carbon taxes is that it creates a pool of money, part of which can be used for financing research and paying for carbon reductions in developing countries. Carbon rewards would not generate such a fund.
Katrin
here are some of the mobile carbon measure tools for measuring individual behaviour: (warning, early betas....) http://www.carbondiem.com/product.html
Katrin
Katrin
Sep 4
9:25 AM
Juliana R.
For frequent flyers, http://www.Dopplr.com has an option to track your carbon
Katrin
http://www.climatecounts.org/ is a consumer index that measures carbon/climate change behaviours of companies, also available via sms at point of purchase for a consumer (text in name of company or product, get a score back -- buy v. no-buy...)
Nadia E.
Does anyone know what an ESCO is?
Aaron S.
http://www.wattzon.org/ has a brilliant visual description of global energy usage and generation
Aaron S.
Very helpful in seeing how you fit in.
Aaron S.
David I.
esco -- energy service co.
Nadia E.
thanks Dacvd
Nadia E.
David.
Jon Z.
Doesn't this system mean that the people who will join are those already using very little energy?
Jon Z.
If I use a lot the free Net won't offset
Jon Z.
If I use a little I get a free subsidy without having a carbon footprint to adjust
Nadia E.
Why would I want more products as an incentive if my driver is the desire to consume less?
Katrin
but the database is not very comprehensive... UC Berkeley is working on a global company and product database that is indexed by some score... and that would be available via open APIs for any organization. They are also developing an iPhone app that queries that database, again at point of purchase (alpha will be out September 9th....)
Sep 4
9:30 AM
Katrin
good question, Nadia :-)
Aaron S.
JZ makes a good point. Adverse selection.
Doc S.
I was thinking of moving to Ottowa until I heard the fiber was just 2Mb.
Nadia E.
Katrin: do you havea link to a beta of the app or info abouthe project at UC Berkley?
Doc S.
I'd be willing to pay more, but I'd have to know how much more, and for what.
Robin C.
I heard about a great health club plan. You could pay a much higher price -- say $600 for the membership -- and then every time you come to the gym, you are given $10. This feels brilliant. I don't see this in the plan being described.
Nadia E.
Robin C: I really like that.
Sep 4
9:35 AM
Nadia E.
So you could round up whatever to you don´t consume of what you´ve paid for and reallocate those funds
Sep 4
9:35 AM
elliot n.
I will offer that gym membership to anyone who wants it! just tell me where you live and what gym you would like to join. it is a sure moneymaker.
Jon Z.
Doc S.
It is significant, or at least interesting, that there is no physical difference between dark and lit fiber.
David I.
Are you given the $10 before you work out or after?
Jon Z.
A Yale economics professor and a Yale law school professor are 
hoping that the next diet trend to take off is their own, which involves 
getting dieters to sign binding contracts committing to pay significant 
sums of money if they fail to meet their weight-loss goals.

The economist, Dean Karlan, tested the method himself, promising to hand 
over $1,000 to a friend every week that he didn't drop one pound. Soon 
enough, he lost 10 pounds, getting down to 170 pounds without paying a cent.
Jim B.
Hot microphone in St. Paul: Peggy Noonan's and Mike Murphy's real views of Sarah Palin: http://tinyurl.com/6n3vuy
Katrin
yes, but she addresses in her WSJ column today...
Micah S.
is solving climate crisis an engineering problem or a political problem?
Katrin
Katrin
Micah S -- both.
Nadia E.
How about a Credit card + mobile app solution with which you would buy any services online or offline, and that automatically puts money in your bankaccount whenever you have "left-over" energy ? We could call them Greencards :)
David I.
Jevons
David I.
Jevons Paradox
Micah S.
we're only talking about engineering solutions...fascinating to me how we've given up on politics
Nadia E.
Or influencing consumer behaviour.
Sep 4
9:40 AM
David I.
Jevons
Nadia E.
I suggest differentiating between consumers as individuals and consumers in groups or as organisations. Different social dynamics= different consumption behaviour.
David I.
Jevons
Robin C.
in my experience, price is number one changer of human behavior. Zipcar consumption is about 10% of personal car consumption because people are paying full costs in real time. Congestion pricing reduces driving by 25% overnight when applied. We need this kind of speed.
Doc S.
I gotta say (and channel Jerry Michalski) that I can't stand the word "consumer."
Nadia E.
OK. Nonsumer.
Katrin
Nadia E -- how do you mean?
David I.
@Nadis -- love it!
David I.
Nadia
Micah S.
I agree with Robin C. But winning congestion pricing, or increased energy prices (via taxes) is a political problem.
David I.
Can I arbitrage my own energy usage or carbon footprints as an individual.
Robin C.
Nadia, seems like this would work if each person has a carbon ration? Here is what you get, and then you spend using your card, and get the difference in cash....am I understanding?
Katrin
Greg, yes. That is a key question. Which is a great story, Andy...
Doc S.
I think there are some uses of "consumer" that make sense. I do consume food and electricity. But I don't consume the Net, or customer service, or clothing. Where the term "customer" is more accurate, I'd prefer it.
Robin C.
but zipcar didn't require taxes, it required real time observation of today's costs. thisis one of the holy grails for energy consuption -- "smart meter"
Nadia E.
Robin C. True, However if you have a peronal relationship with someone who is directy affected by your consumption patterns your perception of value changes, no?
Nadia E.
personal
Sep 4
9:45 AM
Nadia E.
Doc. S when you do a google search and click on ads that generate an income for google, you are consuming an advertising product I think?
Barbara C.
I agree that we need to focus on human behavior --e.g. customer behavior, political behavior -- as well as engineering aspects. Is there another group session that will be dedicated to institutional problems posed by human behavior issues? Or do we need a BOF session on this?
Katrin
what we are talking about with consumer behaviour is at least two things -- buying behaviour and other consumption - getting to and from work, how often I run my dryer, etc? Or is it all buying behaviour in the end which means, in some ways, different incentives apply?
David I.
The better my credit rating, for example, the lower my interest rate. The better I drive the less expensive my car insurance. And if I can buy insurance against future problems. Why can't I as an individual insure future energy costs/usage.
Doc S.
To answer a question from last night, there is currently a 9-9 tie between Mac and Windows laptop use in the room. From what I can see here, anyway. Now back to your program in progress.
Katrin
nadia -- what did you mean by "differentiating between consumers as individuals and consumers in groups or as organisations. Different social dynamics= different consumption behaviour."
David I.
If I behave well in respect to green, then I gov't or market services ME first in future catasrophes.
Robin C.
Problem is that in American politics, people have loved focusing on changing supply. We have falled into a difficult discussion because changing demand is much harder. And must be done.
Jim B.
Katrin, thanks for the WSJ link. Just read the piece. I must say, I wasn't convinced. Noonan sounded a little like a "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof."
Nadia E.
Katrin. I agree. I think we also need to look at what it is in our social dynamics that fuels certain consumption patterns and see if we can find other options for people o engage in the bahviour without burning the energy
Katrin
Jim B. Agree. Quick damage control, though. That piece was up ten minutes after the audio appeared. But yes, backpedaling.
Sep 4
9:50 AM
Nadia E.
"nadia -- what did you mean by "differentiating be"
Micah S.
The original Noonan-Murphy video has been viewed on YouTube more than a 750K times
Juliana R.
There are options for green hosting, can i get carbon credits (incentive for me) because I use a wind powered data hosting solution?
Nadia E.
Katrin: My priorities as an indivual in a situation may differ from my priorities as a member of a group i a situation
Nadia E.
As an individual, my incentive is to minimise my costs, as part of a social context other factors kick in.
Sep 4
9:55 AM
Jim B.
Dave Reed 1, NebuAd 0: NebuAd suspends net tracking: http://tinyurl.com/5m2sw5
David I.
Greg goes meta on advertising!
Katrin
Nadia E - sense of belonging, social status, appearance of virtuousness? What are the priorities/incentives for group behaviours?
Micah S.
Pip +++
Katrin
sense of community and mutual accountability.
Micah S.
Here are two things we need, imho.
David I.
Mark P +++
Nadia E.
belonging and social cred.
Robin C.
Pip, I wish we had a historian among us (Andrew?), i think sadly just about every revolution actually has an underlying economic basis.
Micah S.
1. Better tools for group decision making
Robin C.
Maybe not "mothers against drunk driving'
Nadia E.
Micah. Exactly.
Micah S.
2. Better tools for analyzing political chokepoints and identifying pressure targets
Robin C.
also recycling. other than that, slavery was profoundly economic, so was smothing
scrawford
it's all about visualization -
David I.
So here's a question: Is a neutral net critical to the net's agency in global climate remediation? Or just nice to have?
Sep 4
10:00 AM
scrawford
we only make progress when we can see things
Sep 4
10:00 AM
Micah S.
scrawford +++
Barbara C.
The history of economics as a field reveals its limitations. Much is being written about the limitations of neoclassical economics, and the need for a paradigm shift in considering the activity of complex adaptive systems.
Katrin
the thing is that we know A LOT about consumer behaviour and very little about the rest - the fuzzy, soft parts. Maybe voting behaviour.... but it seems to me that 100 years of social science research and advertising have given us a LOT of data on what changes behaviour....why not draw from the key lessons learned
Nadia E.
Or tools help us to help one another to alter our behviour
Doc S.
+1, Greg. The Net is about participation. It's how we raise barns of countless kinds. Not just how we consume, or how (or what) we pay for. Economic bases are not just transactional. They are also relational. It's what we do for and with each other.
Katrin
micah, better tools for mutual accountability, not sure about group decisions (shiver)
Robin C.
Yes Greg!! to capture it: "Internet can give individuals and groups of individuals rapid and real time feedback on their behavior." The internet is brilliant at this.
Katrin
individual AND mutual accountability
Katrin
i.e. feedback :-)
Nadia E.
Feedback and giveforward :)
Katrin
and halos for virtuous behaviour as well as other "incentives"
Micah S.
Katrin, if Clay Shirky is right that we are now living in the Age of Ridiculously Easy Group Formation (and I think he is right), then what is needed is better tools to help groups coordinate themselves. We don't even have a good tool to enable a group to co-author a document, IMHO.
Nadia E.
Also, Memory is an issue.
scrawford
micah is right
Micah S.
btw, i'm all for smart meters
Juliana R.
Indeed Robin, the internet is great at giving us info. For example, this is my carbon from travel this year. http://flickr.com/photos/afropicmusing/ what would be even better is to have a way for me to know how many trees I should plant/have someone plant for me to offset my carbon.
Katrin
what kind of group behaviours in relation to climate change?
scrawford
bounce a ball across the internet, visually - bounces only happen when you reduce carbon..
Aaron S.
Gameplan_v1
Micah S.
let's build a smart meter that looks like a mini-Xmas display, that shows a home's current energy use, and sell that this Holiday season.
Nadia E.
Scrawford. Like a Ping-pong?
scrawford
big visual beachball! like in a big wonderful stadium
David I.
How many credit cards display the current amount you owe on your account?
elliot n.
:-)
Sep 4
10:05 AM
Nadia E.
Above or below average.
Juliana R.
Aaron, that graphic just made my carbon guilt increase even more.
David I.
It is in the interest of credit card companies NOT to display what you owe in real time.
Katrin
it seems to me that we are talking about commercial sector/manufacturing, etc and individual behaviour. I am unclear on the group role and why that would matter much.
Robin C.
Juliana, re tree planting. For avg car in US.
Aaron S.
Gameplan_v1
scrawford
you can only bounce the ball back if you're doing well on carbon emissions - collective bouncing. i'm just saying - use regional visualization. sort of kidding, but you start with individuals. katrin- we do everything effective in groups
Doc S.
Just wondering if we can have a cheap hybrid. Especially one with an iconic design. I recall when a high percentage of all vehicles on the road were Volkswagen beetles. People bought them because they were cheap to buy as well as good on gas.
David I.
scrawford: I like that...
Katrin
aaron, where are those graphics coming from?
Robin C.
1 mile = 1 pound of CO2 = one 25 yr old tree one month to sequester. So 12 miles of travel requires one old tree a year to sequester
Nadia E.
I´d like to look at mass.customisation and carbon footprints
Aaron S.
Aaron S.
Just trying to show South America is _way_ below the US in energy consumption; the problem is much less serious there.
Robin C.
Pano, exactly!!! we could reduce all the subsidies (and incorporate the enormous externalities) to oil and we would get to the same place more cheaply.
Aaron S.
Katrin, it's really eye-opening stuff.
elliot n.
aaron, any idea what "stuff" is in the first graphic?
Aaron S.
I think it's physical consumer products.
Micah S.
Chris M.
I agree with Pano and Robin. But at the beginning of this session the premise was "new taxes are too hard" which takes eliminating some of these subsidies off the table.
elliot n.
computers/phones/game consoles > car? is that because this guy bikes a ton?
Sep 4
10:10 AM
Aaron S.
Yeah, he lives in SF.
Chris M.
Another way to mobilize individuals is through other concentrations of power. Walmart insists on low carbon footprint for their new stores in China because they think their customers (and maybe shareholders) want them to. This results in teaching low-impact construction technology to the Chinese building industy.
Aaron S.
It's probably reversed for suburbanites.
elliot n.
I wonder what the car/plane ratio would be in a more normalized example?
Aaron S.
Although suburbanites tend to have more stuff as well as more driving in my experience...
Robin C.
chris -- maybe big oil companies are getting such a bad name (deservedly), we can take away some of those. Next stop cost of roads, congestion, carbon into driving
David I.
Random thought: In capitalism, the more I consume and/or horde - the more I am valued in the market place. In social (or gift economy) - the more I give to others the more I am valued.
David I.
Just a partial thought...
scrawford
mando-cello!
Aaron S.
elliot, here's the stuff breakdown:
Aaron S.
Gameplan_v1
Robin C.
Chris E -- and this is one of the things I think we can change, and Zipcar did. You don't have to own the asset to get the value and status out of it. Consumption 2.0 here we come
Micah S.
IMHO, the most powerful use of technology to address climate change is Al Gore's use of Keynote
Sep 4
11:05 AM
Richard W.
Here is the law review papr on the Gore meme:
elliot n.
anyone have links to the pictures and music?
Doc S.
Doc S.
I believe both guys were 15.
scrawford
rick: cite
Aleecia M.
A nice history of Declan inventing Al Gore claiming he invented the Internet: http://www.sethf.com/gore/
Jim B.
Billy's contact info: He's director of the Electric Plant Board of Glasgow, Kentucky. http://www.glasgoc-ky.com wray@glasgow-ky.com (270) 659-3507
Jim B.
Sep 4
11:10 AM
Richard W.
hmm, here is the cite, although I got back the dreaded 404 error message that the file isn't found: http://igs.berkeley.edu/research_programs/…
Richard W.
i'll see if i can find a copy on my laptop
David I.
Doc, in http://isen.com/WHmusic the bass player was 21, the fiddle player was 15 with an ageless musical sensibility.
elliot n.
I thought the bass player was 18??
David I.
check this picture!
David I.
elliot n.
a classic!
Sep 4
11:15 AM
Richard W.
scrawford
thanks, rick!
Sep 4
11:20 AM
David I.
Check out the Friendship Sloop sailing past the Point right now
Chris M.
Amy Wohl said "we are as ready for the paperless office as the paperless bathroom." JZ, what does John Palfrey say in Digital Natives? http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/digitalnatives/
Jon Z.
Heh
Sep 4
11:30 AM
Doc S.
My shootage of the Dash/OpenMoko at CES in January of this year: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linuxjournal/…
David I.
Overestimate of "kontent" and underestimation of communication! . . . appears to be a law . . . Odlyzko's Law???
David I.
I'd assert we are on our way toward the paperless office. Sunlight Foundation is pretty paperless.
David I.
Greg, isen.com is almost entorely paperless -- weeks go by without my printing ANYthing.
Robin C.
for a board meeting on Tuesday, I printed 50 pages for the first time in more than a year.
David I.
because of the Internet, the great bookstore in Falmouth, run by my friend Kyle's mom and dad, closed. It got Amazoned.
Sep 4
11:35 AM
David I.
Walk through the Sunlight Labs and you will see very few pieces of papers. Walk through the offices of where the Sunlight's investigators (e.g., ex-journalists) and their desks overflow with paper.
David I.
Another awesome sailing vessel off the point . . .
Micah S.
i use less paper now than 5 years ago, no question.
Steve K.
on paperlessness. I probably print a few hundred pages a week. problem is 1). reading is done on airplanes. 2). onleffective way I have to "store" reading for later. I will regularly throw away a ream+ of paper on a cross country flight. I guess I am burning in hell on that but...
Desiree Z.
"It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future"
David I.
Steve K: I heard you were going to burn in hell for other reasons. Your paper use only change which circle of Hell.
David I.
Most so called futurists predict the past. Hardly anybody predicts the future. You're doing pretty well if you can predict the present. -- John Perry Barlow
Aleecia M.
I don't retain things I read on screen nearly as well as things on paper. Online is great for skimming to find out if I should care, though. My final proof read of any document is always hard copy. A writer I used to work with is using her dotcom gains to plant forests, she figures it's only fair.
Sep 4
11:40 AM
Jim B.
BTW, anyone care to guess the favorite TV show on the municipal cable system in Glasgow, KY, a rural community of 14,000 in south-central Kentucky -- which had 4 Mbps connectivity in the mid-1990s at dial-up rates?
Micah S.
Bill Nye the Science Guy?
Doc S.
I'd guess Antique Roadshow on PBS.
Jim B.
Not even close.
elliot n.
big brother?
Richard W.
Tom F.
the problem with prediciton is of course that new technologies keep sneaking in. Clarke's famous prediction of comm satellites in ~1945 as being 50 years out was thrown out in just over a decade by the invention of the transistor.
elliot n.
what is it jim? nascar?
elliot n.
wait. some local community gossip show?
Richard W.
cbn?
Chris M.
If Dannon used real strawberries to flavor yoghurt they would use more than the world's production.
Jim B.
Small claims court.
Richard W.
"The Great White North" of the South?
elliot n.
I was close! :-)
Sep 4
11:45 AM
David I.
Chris M: Where did you get that figure for Dannon?
David I.
A GREAT book, and an easy read, on Peak Oil: Hubbert's Peak by Kenneth Deffeyes, a Princeton geology professor-emeritus.
David I.
Doc S.
And a great book about Ken Deffeyes himself is John McPhee's "Basin and Range." Better yet, get the Pulitzer-winning McPhee compilation "Anals of the Former World."
Doc S.
Oops, *Annals*.
Doc S.
I'm sure there were anals as well.
Chris M.
Individual conversation--can't prove it (but it was a serious remark)
David I.
This book -- which I read in about 2001 or 2, got me investing in oil -- I have NOT been sorry, unlike my telecom investments, because the oil picture is very clear when looked at as an objective academic exercise.
elliot n.
chris, what do they flavor the yogurt with?
Richard W.
It's all just holes, after all.
David I.
test
elliot n.
pass
Mark P.
Another great book by Carlota Perez, "Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital: The Dynamics of Bubbles and Golden Ages." She uses the railroad as a great example of a platform change caused by...technology
Sep 4
11:50 AM
Mark P.
Chris M.
The "flavors and fragrances" industry makes substitutes for everything natural--a leading company is Ferminich http://www.firmenich.com/
Doc S.
Is use really "traffic"? Just asking.
Doc S.
Sep 4
11:55 AM
Doc S.
"We still have serious institutional pathologies that we don't know how to address." Great line. (correct please, if I got it wrong)
Desiree Z.
We want to use our cognitive surplus - about the climate change and package this info somehow to change the behaviour of people
Desiree Z.
and then we are slipping into a realm of "affective education"
Sep 4
12:00 PM
elliot n.
could someone please channel my wife and tell me whether she would like some of this pottery?
Desiree Z.
she would like it
elliot n.
remember she will see you des and you will have to answer for your statement!
Desiree Z.
am counting on it, but let me help you choose an item
Desiree Z.
otoh
scrawford
Sep 4
2:10 PM
Doc S.
making money can be an ideal too.
Doc S.
Money being put to work is a very human activity, no? Maybe even ecological in some ways?
Jon Z.
nooooooo
Sep 4
2:25 PM
Andy R.
For more on the shortfall of energy options, explore our ongoing Energy Challenge series at NY Times: http;//http://www.nytimes.com/energychallenge . A particularly useful (sobering) story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/30/business…
Sep 4
2:30 PM
Andy R.
The imploding stadiums remind me of the fascinating Web site Deadmalls.com -- a gallery of America's abandoned retail hubs. http://deadmalls.com/
Sep 4
2:35 PM
Sep 4
2:55 PM
Doc S.
This still on?
Jon Z.
Yes, hello
Sep 4
3:00 PM
Andy R.
Some stuff on reframing people away from consumption for consumption's sake:
Juliana R.
The Green GDP idea from China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_GDP
Sep 4
3:05 PM
Andy R.
oops (again). here's the stuff:  http://www.storyofstuff.com/      
background on Herman Daly's "steady-state economy": 
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Steady_state_economy
various dot earth posts on consumption, including: 
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/the-endless-pursuit-of-unnecessary-things/  
Finally, the Gross National Happiness story: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/04/science/04happ.html
Sep 4
3:10 PM
Juliana R.
Earlier, someone mentioned the Japanese; there is a town that is taking recycling and reuse to a another level http://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/… "We were no longer able to burn our rubbish, so we thought the best policy was not to produce any in the first place," said Sonoe Fujii of the town's Zero Waste Academy, a non-profit organisation that oversees the scheme.
Chris M.
Today we're using the savings of other countries, e.g. the Chinese, to fund the infrastructure of our society; our economy looks much better if we use our own money.
Sep 4
3:15 PM
Chris M.
the social norms that make microfinancing work (peer pressure to repay) are a good example of what david's talking about
Tom F.
I understand that the EU requires its members to run their countries with a zero national deficit. What impact might this have on us?
Chris M.
We couldn't afford our expeditionary forces, for one thing
Tom F.
See "Oil and War", by Russell Freeburg - about wwii
Sep 4
3:20 PM
Sep 4
3:20 PM
Micah S.
slavery = cheap energy +++
Micah S.
so we need the equivalent of an abolitionist movement
elliot n.
reminder to support robin: US gas is cheapest in the western world BY FAR
Chris M.
Better to run out of oil sooner, not later, no?
Micah S.
yes, and $15 a gallon gas in Europe helps fund social program spending, like universal health care...not huge militaries
David I.
And if we find cheap energy -- we will get internet-connected robots; and whole classes of local labor will go remote-presences oversees.
elliot n.
love zip car, but it is more "ferrari-ish" than an actual ferrari!
David I.
Jon Z.
elliot, what do you mean?
Doc S.
infrastructure 2.0, financing 2.0 and ? 2.0. What was that third thing?
Doc S.
ah, consumption 2.0
Chris M.
elliot, ever drive one?
elliot n.
they are not really ferraris, but more practical models (thankfully)
elliot n.
zip car or ferrari?
Chris M.
ferrari
elliot n.
the ones I have seen are more prius, other toyotas, etc
elliot n.
never drove a ferrari
Chris M.
It does have intrinsic properties, after all
Robin C.
How do we accomodate the next 3 billion people? consumption 2.0
elliot n.
it just helped you get laid chris ;-)
Steve K.
so if we only have 3 years, then the ONLY way we are going to change behaviors enough is to raise prices. no way in hell we are going to get society-wide behavioral change in 3 years. need a much blunter weapon
David I.
Chris M.
whatever it takes!
Sep 4
3:25 PM
Robin C.
many economic realities -- hard times ahead -- will make the idea of sharing excess capacity and not owning but using (consumption 2.0) something that poeple want to do.
Andy R.
I still think EDUCATION can lead to changes in peoples' goals (both career goals and lifestyle goals): Ed Mazria, green architect, has been on a tear trying to get architecture schools to require students to incorporate full life-cycle analysis (and energy/environment) in their design projects, for instance. Imagine if every econ student learned about the other side of Adam Smith (the side that discussed "the endless pursuit of unnecessary things...") (google that phrase to find Dot Earth post)
Steve K.
US driving miles dropped for the first time "ever (more or less)" in the last year. Previously the rate of growth had slowed, but the miles traveled had not dipped.
Robin C.
steve K: exactly. In three years we have no time to move bit, do R&D, enact improvements brought about by cap n trade (fix that plant). This is why, IMHO, we have to move MINDS -- carbon taxes. It is our only way to meet the time schedule.
Aleecia M.
actually: even before the housing crash, typical savings is -$7,000 a year. yes, that's negative
Steve K.
people will act when its painful. so we must expect pain if we expect action.
Robin C.
Andy: yes to architecture students, and to people demanding it.
Aleecia M.
in places like Maine there is a change already: people are burning wood from their land. it costs less to buy a wood burning stove once than continue to pay for heating oil. problem: pollution is even higher.
scrawford
I agree with Andy R - economic analysis, rational assumptions, that's not the direction that will change behavior. Education will, value-changes will, visualization will. It's a big change to long-term vision. A different pair of world-glasses.
Andy R.
on steve k's point above, miles did drop in 1979, similar curve to today: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/tvtw/03jantvt… More on this here: http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/…
Steve K.
robin c. I think we are agreeing here. I am not saying "the market will save us" I am saying "the market is the only mechanism we have that can effect this change.
Steve K.
jawboning wont work
Sep 4
3:30 PM
scrawford
I'd like to see robin and pepper in a room working on a leveraging/internet plan.
elliot n.
the education point is a great one. having a similar thread enter law and business schools could be hugely impactful
Steve K.
SYI, S&P500 is down 2.5% today.
Robin C.
Education: one thing I'm hearing from my daughters and youth, is that they are tuning out "green" and "climate change' eudcations. they think blah blah
Chris M.
Susan, the outcome could be a fund against which people could borrow for a list of low-hanging fruits.
Micah S.
i think we have the market plus govt...
scrawford
chris - right - a real development. concrete.
Robin C.
I"m game pepper. I'm going to be in some of those rooms over the next few weeks and ideas and collaboration welcome.
Sep 4
3:35 PM
Andy R.
The sociologists I pester all do tend to agree with Steve K in concluding that it will take a very hard knock -- personally and directly -- to get people to really change. Even Paul Hawken agreed that this will likely be necessary before climate is really addressed:
scrawford
Andy - I say FEAR. just the thing that got the internet started.
Sep 4
4:10 PM
David I.
Onewebday.org -- every Sept 22
David I.
The Yellow T-Shirt is a One Web Day T-Shirt
David I.
Sep 4
4:15 PM
elliot n.
do you have a 501c susan?
Steve K.
FYI, the bond manager referred to is Bill Gross at pimco. link to "letter to obama" piece is here. Pretty scary to have a bond investor advocating deficit spending.
Steve K.
Steve K.
he is ALWAYS worth readin, piece comes out once a month.
Steve K.
very readable, my kind of liberal.
Doc S.
For our TBD session, may I humbly suggest we unpack or explore Robin's "Infrastructure 2.0"
Chris M.
Right, thanks, Steve.
Micah S.
elliot n.
good idea doc!
Doc S.
"How do we effect individual behavior best given the tools we have today."
Steve K.
sorry, just to clarify, bill gross and I are very similar kinds of liberals (yes, in my world we are both considered pinko commies)
Doc S.
FWIW, there are now >500,000 open source code bases laying around in the world. The number of building materials is huge.
Sep 4
4:20 PM
elliot n.
do-tank? dude-tank?
scrawford
Doc S.
We're now behind a YouTube window. Hello?
Nadia E.
visualisation tools
David I.
Example tool: https://www.wesabe.com/ - Wesabe has an impressive set of tools for getting your banking transactions from banks, credit cards etc. This show how it is possible to aggregate information socially.
Micah S.
This is a big question...maybe i should defer for a while so we can respond to JZ
scrawford
Nadia E.
Adverse behaviourial
David I.
Visualization tools: IBM Many Eyes: http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/home
Nadia E.
Bad behaviour and underlying factors, sociology/ behaviourial studies. Why do we do the stuff we do?
David I.
Google's visualization tools http://code.google.com/apis/visualization/… - check out the Motion Chart (variant of GapMinder)
Steve K.
a very specific slice of society (educated, relatively but not too wealthy) has always thought the world needs saving. Most other slices are indifferent.
David I.
More from Google re visualization: http://code.google.com/apis/visualization/
Doc S.
One lesson of being 60-something: aging is fatal. As Jim Morrison said, before croaking at 27, nobody gets out of here alive. Love, we find, is what we can only give. Because what we take will be gone with our own selves, as the stick gets shorter.
Nadia E.
Interaction patterns or flows as related to satifying different needs or wants...Activity-feedback
Steve K.
re: students for disarmamen - how many people went out to that cabin and ate vegetarian food mostly in the hopes oif hooking up?
elliot n.
doc, that has 3-minute card written all over it!
Sep 4
4:25 PM
Steve K.
my favorite 60's quote. "Oh I went to all o the anit-war demonstrations. they were a great place to meet chicks."
Nadia E.
How do we build a sense of lasting value and memory in a "quick" medium ?
scrawford
but part of persuasion is visualization
Steve K.
Dave - how about letting people play their three minute cards and get a bonus 2 minutes if they do it now?
scrawford
of the groupmind
Andy R.
MIT Center for Collective Intelligence climate Collaboratorium http://www.cci.mit.edu NY Law School "Do Tank": http://dotank.nyls.edu/ Public annotation of McCain climate speech: http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/… Climate Policy blog: http://climatepolicy.org/ Climate Ethics blog: http://www.climateethics.org
Nadia E.
how do we link our behaviour to consequences for other INDIVIDUALS
elliot n.
maybe we could reframe the problem in terms of excess consumption?
Doc S.
The average species lasts 2 million years. Homo Sapiens has been here about that long. But the human diaspora, during which the species spread out of Africa and across the globe, began only 60 thousand years ago. Through it all, our species has been, to the planet's larger ecosystem, largely pestilential. We denude islands, from Easter to England, of forests. We haul endfull (not endless) quantities of fossil fuels out of the ground. Can we change our nature? Or rebalance our own nature?
Aaron S.
Gameplan_v1
Katrin
here are some of the mobile carbon measure tools for measuring 
individual behaviour: (warning, early betas....) 
http://www.carbondiem.com/product.html
Katrin 	
http://mobgas.jrc.it/mobgas/app/MainPage.po?
Katrin 	
and more in here: http://issuu.com/mobileactive/docs/wireles…
Sep 4
4:30 PM
Nadia E.
Oerhaps we need to really see what the effects would be on our lives as individuals in a forseeable future. Not in 200 years, but within 10
Nadia E.
perhaps
Katrin
http://www.climatecounts.org/ is a consumer index that measures carbon/climate change behaviours of companies, also available via sms at point of purchase for a consumer (text in name of company or product, get a score back -- buy v. no-buy...) too small a database, though.
scrawford
Doc S.
A thought. We have created a means for communicating -- the Net -- that puts us at zero distance from each other at costs that lean closer to zero as well. What can we do with the Net? How can the Net be a means or an accessory to our resolve to change -- to act on the realization that our species' behavior has catastrophic effects on all of life and the systems that support it?
Steve K.
fun facts from an analyst report I just got: Each 100k jobs lost is about $3b of disposable income. Each $0.20 drop in Gasoline is $23b of disposable income. Weak jobs figures offset the income gains made from lower gasoline prices. Each 100k jobs lost represents about $2.8b. The math is 100k x $30k disposable income. Or $3b. US Annual gasoline use is 113b gallons/year (per EIA). Gasoline is down $0.20 from 7/15 high. That works out to a $23b income boost.
Nadia E.
ping I did this, pang this is how it affects me or someone who could be me. And if I do it so many times, then something even wose happens. And have that information be visible to my social circle.
Nadia E.
worse.
Robin C.
no edge.There is a continuum obviously. And also a horrifying built in time lag.
Micah S.
Doc S +++ that is what I want to rant about
Robin C.
work catastrophic is one used by the IPCC report with precise definitions associated with it
Robin C.
word "catastrophic"
Doc S.
Sep 4
4:35 PM
Juliana R.
The grave effects of climate change are already being felt in Africa - and will be even worse as the situation deteriorates http://www.economist.com/research/articles…
Nadia E.
Lets say you could pick an avatar that simulates how your offspring would look and might behave And have something bad happen to themeverytime we engage in environmentally harmful behaviour
Nadia E.
Kind of like pokemon kits.
Nadia E.
but connected to real time data from your behaviour.
elliot n.
doc, play your card right behind micah! rant on, both of you!
Katrin
Nadia, fear is an ineffective behaviour modifier.
scrawford
Nadia E.
Mmm misdirected fear yes. Perhaps seeing the consquences of your actions on other individuals is different?
Steve K.
katrin - fear is ineffective? I am intrigued (dont necessarily disagree). why?
Doc S.
From http://doc-weblogs.com/2001/02/26 ... "Either we get green or our layer of the lithosphere wraps early. We have to learn to respect a scope of time that geologists and too few others even begin to conceive. That's why I love what the Long Now folks are trying to do. Our species has been operating on a free lunch program for the duration. We're a start-up species, exploiting everything we found when we came here, and giving back approximately nothing. If we don't come back from lunch pretty soon, lunch is what we'll be." Wrote that 7 years ago. BTW, read the quote above that from McPhee, about the origin of iron, another non-renewable resource.
Robin C.
My most cynical self: impending horrid worldwide recession is the best possible way to address the problem. This puts a huge stall on energy use, and buys us time to persuade people.
David I.
I think the word you are looking for is: AIDS.
Robin C.
Thank you Aleecia
Sep 4
4:40 PM
Nadia E.
MSF had a really good text a coffin away campaign: http://www.coloribus.com/paedia/prints/200…
Steve K.
this is going to make me lots of friends... SO lets look at Darfur tday. is anyone doing anything at all about it? (ok, there is some handwaving but pathetically little given the actual cost-benefit). That is exactly why I think we need a shock, becayuse we are apparently quite capable of ignoring Darfur-like levels of kmisery indeifinitely.
Katrin
Steve K -- pretty established in behavior modification research. See, for example, fear ineffective v effective in health campaigns: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere…
Katrin
ive requirements: 1) fear onset should occur before the desired behavior is offered; 2) the event upon which the fear is based should appear to be likely; 3) a specific desired behavior should be offered as part of the campaign; 4) the level of fear elicited should only be such that the desired behavior offered is sufficient to substantially reduce the fear; 5) fear offset should occur as a reinforcer for the desired behavior, confirming its effectiveness. Under some circumstances it may be difficult to ensure that these requirements are met. In general, a positive reinforcement approach may prove to be more effective than the use of fear.
David I.
Idea: Green version of a face book community. And we individually make two choices: 1) Switch to "greenbook" and (2) commit to spend 30 minutes a day there.
Andy R.
The Climate Divide (a set of stories showing that wealthy countries are already girding themselves from climate risks with their wealth and technology, while countries most vulnerable to climate-related hazards today are sitting ducks. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/…
David I.
And on Greenbook we work on the planet.
Katrin
This is confirmed by most behavioral research in a variety of different areas. Health is probably the best documented, specifically behavior mod as part of public health campaigns.
scrawford
micah is right - no good tools for volunteers or group collaboration - but watch NYLS!
scrawford
and IBM!
Nadia E.
Micah: getsatisfaction.com
Jon Z.
problem with parade of horribles
is that it's too persuasive
3-5 years from now
when not enough, by calculation, has been done
what do the committed climate change ppl do?
to me the big hook would be finding a separate path
apart from arguing about reducing emissions
to what everyone seems to agree is not attainable
Doc S.
Britt Blaser (who was here last year) is working on tools with OrgWare. But they're not out yet. Still, he's working on them more than full-time.
elliot n.
I would push back on no good tools. there ARE blogs, wikis, doc sharing, meetup, even second life! and so much more.
Andy R.
NY Academy of Sciences has a new Scientists Without Borders initiative that's essentially match.com for scientists and challenges. http://scientistswithoutborders.nyas.org/
elliot n.
we have a leadership problem, not a tools problem and we look to the wrong places for leadership
scrawford
elliot - not for effective management or activism
Steve K.
oooh. john z. climate change debate as an echo of the y2k "disaster" mongering?
elliot n.
exactly! focus!
Steve K.
we talked about y2k a lot at the first bighook. yawn
Sep 4
4:45 PM
scrawford
attention is the scarce resource
elliot n.
I don't get that susan. I wish you had another card. I can't imagine what is missing other than some "nice-to-have" features
Doc S.
So here's the irony: as the species moves toward catastrophic crises of its own making, the Net -- our species' greatest communication invention -- is a whole new and protean universe. For the Net it's 3 minutes after the Big Bang and all we have are a few light elements, lots of heat and no galaxies. The galaxies we make are the ones that will save our species' ass.
Nadia E.
Attention ques: is it here? is it now? Is it new? Is it me?
Jon Z.
steve-> and what was the view on y2k there? seen as a real threat?
Juliana R.
Re: Darfur, compassion fatigue, check out paul slovik's piece on compassion fatigue http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php… we are simply numbed by the numbers from Darfur, and other crises that will come from climate change...we shall be just as numbed
Jon Z.
doc-> agreed that we are still in the early seconds, and that the Net stands to change the way people think and interact far more than TV did -- and TV did a lot!
Doc S.
I love "institutional pathologies." I'm not even sure what they are, but also sure that it's true.
Micah S.

The Labors of Internet-Assisted Activism, paper for politics web 2.0 
at Royal Holloway, University of London, by Rasmus Kleis Nielsen.doc
[link]
scrawford
elliot: we don't have tools that allow people to easily slot in as volunteers providing different resources - project management for volunteers does not exist
Robin C.
JZ: yes. so help. How can we attain?
Doc S.
What would Darwin say?
Micah S.
Other interesting papers from that same conference here: http://newpolcom.rhul.ac.uk/politics-web-2…
Jon Z.
Robin -> I see the net as a transformative tool
Jon Z.
and one that can vastly change the attitudes of kids who in ten years will be running the show
scrawford
ebay for volunteers plus visualization for big problems - where you see your impact/consequences
Jon Z.
i see a significant slice of people interested in more than the treadmill
Katrin
Isn't this primarily a marketing problem? and secondarily, one with inefficient messages? It's not an attention problem. We can focus and do focus on immediate crises that impact us. We find the attention ad re-orient and re-prioritize.
Doc S.
"it's endemic, it's a feedback loop, it's a hurricane effect" Barbara C. Good line.
Jon Z.
enterprises that cultivate a sense of community and responsibility -- identity beyond oneself -- seem very important
scrawford
but the enterprise can be a group
scrawford
formed for a specific purpose
Sep 4
4:50 PM
Robin C.
jz. ten years is too late. Important tomorrow to get HOldren to ask about this. Yes, at each and every moment, less carbon is better than more carbon. But some tings can't be slowed. Some big stochastic events will happen that are irreversible. I don't want to hit one of those.
Katrin
We have sucked at persuasively illustrating the problem and then offering do-able actions to counteract the problem. So we end up with fatigue, denial, a sense of non-efficacy
elliot n.
when a problem is to big, break it down. exactly. hills not mountains
Nadia E.
Katrin. Precisely.
Steve K.
the whole "show an identity card" at the airport thing was driven by the airlines trying to prevent people from re-selling tickets. NO security value.
Robin C.
maybe teh greenbook has a bunch of tabs. We can break the problem down and people can work on discrete bites.
Steve K.
great case of waiting for a crisis to drive a private agenda.
Micah S.
Elliot N: when I say we don't have good tools, I mean for non-early adopters. You can't seriously call Second Life a tool that I could go to my home town with and say, let's use this together to deliberate on a 5-year plan for how we're going to cut our carbon footprint, for ex. IMHO, wikis are still too hard to use by large groups (and most successful wikis require lots of human editors), and blogs are also lousy devices for group decision making...We need a Roberts Rules for the Internet, if you will...
Jon Z.
Robin -> so it may be that reducing carbon is too late -- for political, technical reasons --
Jon Z.
even if it's not ontologically too late
Steve K.
Barbara C - great comments.
Aleecia M.
Robin: I cannot see any likely way out. It's not that I don't care (which may have seemed the case when I mentioned the Shell report on the dlist.) It's that the change must be so massive and so fast.
Jon Z.
next question is -- fine, are we just screwed,
Jon Z.
or is there a plan B?
scrawford
micah is right - need to see the group mind, the train running towards a goal etc. We don't have that yet.
Aaron S.
Plan B is scrubbing it out of the air, AFAICT.
Chris M.
JZ, since it's a good bet we won't make substantial change before something crisis-like happens, maybe the effort should go to creating a contingency plan B
Doc S.
Z -> I like TV as a transformational baseline. With radio before it, TV got families off front porches and put them in living rooms, listening to furniture, and then watching it. Now the Net is eating the TV (witness last night, when we all watched speeches on a computer), and everybody can produce as well as consume. Points of origination, and powers of origination, are everywhere. All the new tools are made not only to work on the Net, but were grown on the Net's generative soils. This gives me cause for optimism. Or at least to rationalize it.
Aleecia M.
There are different groups that get screwed to different extent. Africa: toast. The US: less clear. And it is not as if Africa & the US are monolithic blocks, either: changes are going to be very, very local.
Jon Z.
Aaron-> great - would love to see how plausible that is, and how to make it better
Jon Z.
Doc-> completely agreed
Steve K.
Ice that breaks off Greenland and
Antarctica together with other effects of global warming may
raise sea levels 0.8 meters (31 inches) to 2 meters by the end
of the century, U.S. researchers said.

     The predicted range, one of the highest published so far,
was made by scientists led by Tad Pfeffer of the University of
Colorado's Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research. Their
calculation of the effects of ice dislodging from land and
sliding into oceans will appear in a study published today in
the online edition of Science.
Robin C.
YOu know. The thing many of us feared is happening here. We have to stop debating how big how soon the problem (and I am part of that problem) and focus on what the internet can do to help. Specifically. Back to what this group knows better.
Sep 4
4:55 PM
Don J.
Don J.
Trying to find references to people who state that humans evolved to respond to immediate threats "run from saber tooth tiger", but our brains aren't good at non-immediate threats
Micah S.
Robin C +++
elliot n.
circuses not bread!
elliot n.
robin ++++++++++
Chris M.
Robin more pluses
Doc S.
In Phoenix we're mining water. Lately the city has started replenishing the aquifer, but the city is still silly. But so is New Orleans, Miami and every coastal city that persists in denial of the fact that the last ice age is still ending. The seas were rising anyway. We're dealing, indeed, with human nature here.
Jon Z.
I'm with you, Robin, so long as we have a reasonable sense of the problem to which we are responding. Carbon emissions? Pollution? Temperature going up? Etc.
Jon Z.
I don't think we need 100% certainty to act
Aleecia M.
I'd be happy to go with carbon.
Steve K.
robin - I agree but I fear we were always going to end up here in the first place.
Juliana R.
there was a great series on NPR called climate connections, and there was a commentator who simply put it as 'Adapt, Reclaim or die' - So how do we adapt to climate change, reclaim (including the question of changing behaviour) by use of the internet?
Sep 4
5:00 PM
Katrin
do you agree with this? Moving on, Gilbert points out that global warming doesn’t violate our normal sensibility either. It doesn’t make our blood boil. It’s not something that makes us disgusted. There are a few things that arouse deep emotional feelings in us – they include food and sex, for example – but definitely not the type of scientific communication that global warming converses in. Thus, while we may deeply care about whom we and others sleep with, we don’t equally care about air conditioning.
Doc S.
On population implosion. One view. http://www.quaker.org/tqe/2006/TQE149-EN-P…
Katrin
so -- if you do agree, a marekting / presentation propblem?
Doc S.
Unimportant but significant: Jared Diamond is a terrific thinker but not a great writer.
Katrin
ugh, marketing/presentation/action? we can pick a problem and dissect it and make it accessible and actionable.
Katrin
or try to, as an exercise, of sorts.
Barbara C.
I forgot to make the point that a focus on human species pathologies of decision making is relevant to our discussion about how the Internet can be used to address climate change issues. For example, how might use of the Internet exacerbate these pathologies (enabling destructive group behavior) even though the intention was to facilitate constructive group response?
Richard W.
Don J., here are a few books that focus on the various shortcomings of our evolved brains, including our inability to focus on longer-range problems:
Juliana R.
Great question Barbara
Richard W.

George Lakoff and Mark Johnson, Philosophy in the Flesh (1999)
Andrew Newberg, Why We Believe What We Believe (2006)
Tor Norretranders, The User Illusion (1991)
Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela, The Tree of Knowledge (1998)
Gilles Fauconnier and Mark Turner, The Way We Think (2002)
Thomas Kida, Don’t Believe Everything You Think (2006)
Melvin Conner, The Tangled Wing (2003)
Robert Fogelin, Walking the Tightrope of Reason (2003)
David J. Linden, The Accidental Mind (2007)
Timothy Wilson, Strangers to Ourselves (2002)
Cordelia Fine, A Mind of Its Own (2005)
Chris Frith, Making Up The Mind (2007)
Mark Blumberg, Basic Instinct: The Genesis of Behavior (2005)
Keith Stanovich, The Robot’s Rebellion (2005)
Read Montague, Your Brain Is (Almost) Perfect: How We Make Decisions (2007)
Dan Ariely, Predictably Irrational (2008)
Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein, Nudge (2008).
David I.
+1^1000
David I.
(Ok, still +1)
Doc S.
Barbara, I think the Net will support both human pathologies and the means to overcome them. The question is how.
elliot n.
I feel like there was a conclusion I was missing there. I will find mark on a break!
Barbara C.
Doc, I agree. But we could possibly avoid/mitigate the destructive possibilities if we better understand what drives them.
Nadia E.
Betrand Russel " The conquest of Happiness". Alain De Botton " The consolations of Philosophy". We need to find sustainable relationships and forms of socialisation and entertainment
Sep 4
5:05 PM
Robin C.
I'm meeting in couple of weeks with Rockefeller foundation on just idea that Mark Peshoff talked about. How can we enable individual households to buy in to electric grid so that they can let their electric use be slowed down during peak periods?
Aleecia M.
I'm betting we can't save the earth by noon tomorrow. Can we think about structure beyond big hook?
elliot n.
always the challenge aleecia
Richard W.
Here's a radical thought: destroy the grid, and rely totally on the local community.
Robin C.
Can we create a social network plus a mesh sensor network to make this happen? This is a very serious question. Financiers await if I (we) can come up with an implementable plan.
Juliana R.
Robin, we can begin with smart meters that give a summary of elec. use?
Robin C.
juliana: more than smart meters. It has to be guaranteed shutting down. (or turning down thermostat). Also this group can bring buying power etc.
Nadia E.
A new definition of personal success in the world, a new lifestyle that promotes sustainable living. Marketed under a global brand and have evangelists spread the doctrine by being examples. We need a new religion.
David I.
test
Aleecia M.
Local govts would be excellent "first buyers" for automatically shutting down A/C
scrawford
i liked the part of the conversation where we were figuring out what the internet could help with
Steve K.
Robinc and mark p: Being unfair to mark, but Cisco OWNS linksys, which is the leading consumer/home networking company. there is a big $$ business opportunity here but Linksys has built nothing but slightly faster wi-fi routers since Cisco bought it (Linksys is now under new management, but it isn't meeting the expectations set out for it originally).
Tom F.
Steve K.
reducing homw consumption on a real-time basis
scrawford
yes, steve k. plus changing visualization of the problems
David I.
How much [disposable] money is in this room? How much does it cost to set up one person/family independent energy? Divide and figure out how many people can be funded off the grid. Decide who we want to save.
David I.
Go.
Katrin
dinner table conversation -- Robin C and Nadia and Katrin table: Pick ONE problem, dissect it and figure out three ways in which available solutions (or relatively easily do-able solutions) can make a sizeable impact.
Robin C.
Nadia: yes to your last post.
Sep 4
5:10 PM
Katrin
We can pick Robin C's idea.
Juliana R.
Richard W - I like that, how about rebuilding the grid in a smarter way? (I will talk about that during my 3 minute allocation) esp. in regard to Africa that doesnt have a big grid in most countries
Katrin
concrete, implementable/actionable, sketched out biz plan/feasibility. On a flip chart, if need be :-)
scrawford
we have 20 minutes to be real
Mark P.
Here is the research I was referring to:
Nadia E.
I´d say we get the greatest Marketing pros in th world involved. The church.
Mark P.
Robin C.
Aleecia: Yes govt and big apartment buildings can do this. The idea is how can we create a platform for individual households? They want and need a way to opt in. then we don't have to do the months of sales cycle and permissions and rfps etc.
Nadia E.
The Synagogs, The Mosques, the Temples.
elliot n.
nadia ++++, but they would NEVER go for it
Aleecia M.
I know folks working on technology to do just that.
elliot n.
and btw, synagogues are horrible marketers!
Nadia E.
Elliot: how do you know?
elliot n.
I will tell you on a break! :-)
Nadia E.
Yah I know, but there is a marketing and communication infrastructure that resonates deeply
Katrin
housing coops. Start with ONE city. Apartment buildings, coops, condo associations. Bang for buck. Pledge and compete.
Nadia E.
Not respecting God´s creation I thought was a sin on all sides, no?
Nadia E.
Katrin! yes.
elliot n.
and wouldn't organized religion have a kind of "its gods will" attitude towards it?
Robin C.
look outside. we are fogged in. Must be a metaphor for something
Aleecia M.
They have two ideas: if you show people how they use energy and what they pay for, people will use energy better. Second, if people can have home use curtailed during heavy use times, they can keep to primary energy plants and reduce pollution overall.
scrawford
proofs of concept - with groups.
Nadia E.
Elliot: I doubt it.
David I.
Robin C.: +1
Jim B.
Sep 4
5:15 PM
Katrin
yes, susan c --dinner table proof of concept brainstorm. I feel the urgent need to get concrete.
Nadia E.
AFAIK All religions place at least some amount of personal responsibility for one´s fate on oneself
Barbara C.
Nadia, your suggestion of the church is risky. Historically, Churches/organized religion have been prevalent sources of destructive institutional and social behavior.
Nadia E.
WTF if the Scientologists could o it, why can´t we?!?!?
Aleecia M.
Norton tried: solar for low-incoming housing. See http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2005/04…
Nadia E.
Yah ok, but if we are facing imminent destruction that sort of hanges things doesn´t i?
Nadia E.
changes
elliot n.
Nadia EL-Imam: now that is funny! :-)
Nadia E.
:)
Aleecia M.
Idea being, people with low incomes are usually very close to the edge, if you can cut their energy costs, they are less likely to wind up on the street
Nadia E.
Barbara C. Life is risky right now, we needto be trying everything possible,
Robin C.
Here is the synopsis of the idea (and I didn't write it) on which we can really move:
Robin C.
he basic idea I would like to probe revolves around creating 
the equivalent of Facebook/MySpace types of social, web based interaction -- 
targeted at creating a massive energy efficiency cooperative.  Allow folks 
to join together in their efficiency efforts, getting both technical 
support, possibly financing,  but more importantly, aggregating their 
effect for purposes of marketing the energy attributes (carbon reduction, 
peak shaving, etc).  Thousands or millions of people bolted together through 
the web could create the functional equivalent of city-scale energy 
efficiency efforts, without the city.  And since the most interesting new 
revenue sources available to support efficiency investments may come from 
the carbon, peak shaving, and forward capacity markets, aggregation and 
scale are essential if one is to participate in those markets.  Individual 
homeowners like you and me will not have market access (and our utility 
companies aren't interested in helping), unless we join together with 
thousands of others like us.  Wireless controls on energy using devices 
(such as water heaters and window air conditioners) would be part of the 
effort, to allow us to gain timely control and measurement of energy use 
and energy reduction.    
 
Chris M.
Two relevant things the internet is good at: real-time resource allocation (which creates efficiency) and enabling collective action (which adds leverage to awareness and intention). Should we limit our discussion to these two approaches?
scrawford
Why, yes, Chris, I think we should.
Don J.
Aleecia: I agree, we need to make it more clear how much we electricity we are using. But I can see the total from my electric bill, I need more granularity about what devices are using what power
Aleecia M.
Yes, that is exactly the idea.
Richard W.
+1 to Chris
Sep 4
5:20 PM
Katrin
Chris M - and a third: provide immediate feedback.
scrawford
We should fund collective groupwork visualization tools. Tonight.
Desiree Z.
yes!
Chris M.
Internet isn't necessarily needed for the feedback, but yes.
Robin C.
yes Chris. I concurr. that is the source of my work.
Doc S.
Elliot: Collect a list of five things people in this room can do.
Barbara C.
I disagree. "Trying everything possible" can be viewed as a rationalization for avoiding the hard work of looking at ourselves and learning from experience . This is a classic form of denial -- well documented by research.
Juliana R.
S crawford and Chris +++
Doc S.
Hey, three of us jacked Scott's van to get here.
Barbara C.
FYI, my last comment was a response to Nadia's comment to me.
Robin C.
I'm not doing little.
Richard W.
We can talk about what we are doing.
Desiree Z.
Richard W.
Communicate our actions.
Doc S.
Desiree: Move that we break into little tables at dinner and tackle separate problems.
Nadia E.
Barbara C. I think that what it would take for people to do the hard work of looking at ourslves and learning from experience is a "religious movement" ...Interest, insight, as well as a pressure- action-feadback-preassure loop.
Sep 4
5:25 PM
Chris M.
Have we concluded that this group is only interested in changing the behavior of individuals/households? Are mobilizing (using the net) to change business behavior or government policy part of our conversation?
Aleecia M.
So each table picks one person to speak at the end?
Jon Z.
Chris -> seems to me all should be fair game
Aleecia M.
To summarize?
Doc S.
Chris, I don't think so. I think everything is on the table, so to speak.
Micah S.
Obama campaign has raised $8M from 130,000 donors since last night and is on track to raise $10M by tonite (which I predicted this morning). Thought folks would like to know.
Jon Z.
I'd like a table on ways to hold a conversation and come to closure on the Internet
Nadia E.
where the preassure is a social one.
Doc S.
DI: run dinner like an open space, have some pads to sign up with a topic.
Doc S.
jz: "how to have a conversation and come to closure over the net"
Barbara C.
Nadia, the problem is that religion/religious fora are often used as a pretense to justify narcissistic behavior. See, e.g. M. Scott Peck's book, The People of the Lie. Narcissism is considered the most difficult "thinking" disorder to treat.
Doc S.
David Reed: distributed or decentralized power generation
Nadia E.
Barbara C. And religions appeal to the broad masses with few exceptions. We need to make something happen.
Richard W.
So one option is to prepare for mobilizing the right kinds of change AFTER the disaster hits us
Katrin
Chris M -- suggest a dinner table topic that focuses on biz and commercial problem
Sep 4
5:30 PM
Katrin
or Chris M -- policy change, for that matter
Robin C.
Robin's table topic: what are the precise components necessary to create a social network/community that individual households can opt into that lets them pool their buying power; put their electric consumption on grid so that electric companies can reduce their consumption during peak times; other things. Likely require understanding of sensors and marketing and websites.
Barbara C.
Nadia, and religion's appeal to the broad masses is what can contribute to such devastating consequences when power is abused. E.g. how many human being have been killed....in the name of God.
scrawford
nuts and drinks are out there
Katrin
Juliana R's table: Bottom-up and African-centric approaches to energy
Nadia E.
Barbara C. Im not saying this without rservation, Im just saying that there is a communication infrastructure and system of incentive that goes beyond what we rationally know is necessary, to which we have access. Perhaps exploring them is an option we could consider is all I am saying
Sep 4
5:35 PM
Andy R.
Resilience is a key need in developing countries (particularly Africa) even with TODAY's climate variability, let alone what may come with building greenhouse gases. Malawi's annual federal budget for weather forecasting is $150k (see Climate Divide series). Anything that can bring rainfall forecasting to subSaharan Africa is important. Mobile tech seems perfect for this. Gates etc focused on this : http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/…
Tom F.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Kamen Dean is putting a lot of his personal energy and money into distributed generation.
Barbara C.
Nadia, I understand. And it's a potential communication infrastructure to consider. I'm just suggesting that we have a balanced consideration of its use - -this includes the need to be cognizant of its potential for destructive consequences.
Sep 4
8:30 PM
Steve K.
pimco's bill gross "What Happens During Delevering 

Risk spreads, liquidity spreads, volatility, term premiums – they all go up. 

Delevering slows/stops when assets have been liquidated and/or sufficient 
capital has been raised to produce an equilibrium. 

The raising of sufficient capital now depends on the entrance of new 
balance sheets. Absent that, prices of almost all assets will go down.
Sep 4
8:35 PM
Steve K.
As the chart demonstrates, there have been prior periods when this trio has not done well and the U.S. economy has hardly blinked. However, the current year-over-year decline of over 10% has never really been witnessed since the Great Depression. That, in and of itself, is a potential red flag. Yet a 10% aggregate asset price decline does more than make us all 10% less wealthy. Because many of these assets are leveraged and margined, the more they decline, the more frequent and frenzied the margin calls, and if the additional cash flow is not provided, not only an asset liquidation but a debt liquidation follows. It is the debt liquidation that potentially turns a stagnant/recessionary economy into something much worse.
Sep 4
8:40 PM
Steve K.
And now, while some will compare current government bailouts to Slick Willie, citing moral hazard, near criminal regulatory neglect, and further bailouts for Wall Street and the rich, common sense can lead to no other conclusion: if we are to prevent a continuing asset and debt liquidation of near historic proportions, we will require policies that open up the balance sheet of the U.S. Treasury – not only to Freddie and Fannie but to Mom and Pop on Main Street U.S.A., via subsidized home loans issued by the FHA and other government institutions. A 21st century housing-related version of the RTC such as advocated by Larry Summers amongst others could be another example of the government wallet or balance sheet that is required during rare periods when the private sector is unable or unwilling to step forward.
Sep 4
8:45 PM
Steve K.
net neutrality gains another big backer: NEW YORK and SAN JOSE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The National Football League (NFL) and Adobe Systems Incorporated (Nasdaq:ADBE) today announced the NFL has selected Adobe® Flash® technology to deliver live online video streaming of NBC Sunday Night Football games on NFL.com and NBCSports.com. For the first time, full-length NFL games will be widely available in the U.S. over the Internet. Named Sunday Night Football Extra, the high-quality streaming video delivered with Adobe Flash technology will enable fans to watch the games free within a rich, immersive environment that will include interactive extras such as alternative camera angles, picture-in-picture technology, in-game highlights, live statistics, and interactivity with network talent via a live blog.
Andy R.
Obama is on O'Reilly Factor for first time, chunk of interview running now (8 pm) on Fox. wild...
Sep 4
8:55 PM
Andy R.
Sep 4
9:10 PM
Sep 4
9:15 PM
Andy R.
More of my music (my band Uncle Wade doing a song I wrote about the limited room in the national cemetery)> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ADeFBiIHqIY&h… name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ADeFBiIHqIY&h…; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Wednesday, September 3, 2008 | Friday, September 5, 2008

 

BigHook Chat

People in this transcript

  • Aaron Swartz
  • Aleecia McDonald
  • Andy Revkin
  • Barbara Cherry
  • Brough Turner
  • Chris M
  • David I.
  • David Isenberg
  • Desiree ZM
  • Display
  • Doc Searls
  • Don Jackson
  • elliot noss
  • Jim Baller
  • Jon Zittrain
  • Juliana Rotich
  • Katrin
  • Mark Peshoff
  • Micah Sifry
  • Nadia EL-Imam
  • Richard Whitt
  • Robin Chase
  • Scott Bradner
  • scrawford
  • Steve Crocker
  • Steve Kamman
  • Steve S.
  • Tom Freeburg

Files in this transcript